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Science Does Not Care's avatar

I also find abortion near-insoluble. Recognition of personhood is at least challenging, and likely not simple not a person-then a person. And such a consideration has to be part of any individual and societal decisions.

But I also challenge similar yes or no, all or nothing significance of the imposition on the mother, on two issues.

First, would we even have this endless, national debate if pregnancies lasted, say, 48 hours? Or, at the other extreme, if a pregnancy was a permanent debilitating state? It then comes down to arguing about what length of term is too much--much like discussing what length of term translates to the threshold of personhood.

Second, I see a significant difference between an imposition that occurs randomly and one that is at least partially self-induced. Almost every woman who becomes pregnant has at least a working knowledge of the bio-mechanics involved. And many if not most choose to participate. I will also guess that most women, and partners, do not want pregnancy as an outcome.

But all people would like to enjoy actions without consequences. Does that desire automatically negate responsibility? If I choose to do something that leads to impairment, either physically or financially, and I wish I was not, then what rights do I have?

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Gary Whittenberger's avatar

MS1: And brain-damaged adults already retain rights as humans, so their rights cannot be taken away.

GW1: Their rights could be taken away if the law allowed this. See above. Why should permanently comatose patients be considered to be persons?

MS1: Still, the argument is made that a fetus is a potential human being, since all of the characteristics that make us persons are front-loaded into the genome and unfold during embryological development.

GW1: The early fetus is a potential human being, but the later fetus is an actual human being. (I equate “human being” with “human person.”)

MS1: Given the choice between granting rights to an actual person (an adult woman) or a potential person (her fetus), it is rational to choose the former on the grounds of both reason and compassion.

GW1: But, some fetuses are actual persons and not potential persons, and they have rights just like the mother does. And in fact, some rights like the right to life should take priority over the right to bodily autonomy. Why? Because no rights are meaningful without life.

MS1: We know adult women can think and feel; we don’t know that about fetuses.

GW1: I think we do know it about late fetuses. Babies can discriminate the voice of their mother, which they heard in the womb, from other voices they did not hear in the womb. There is even one study showing that babies can discriminate a piece of literature read to them in the womb from one not read to them in the womb. Why can they do this? Because at some point in their development in the womb they acquire consciousness, the ability to think, and memory.

MS1: Once again binary thinking lures us into treating a mother and her fetus as the same, whereas continuous thinking allows us to see the substantive differences.

GW1: But “Is it a person or not?” is a binary question, and there is nothing wrong with the question. Even though the acquisition of consciousness might occur over the course of an hour, we can easily take that into account in making a binary decision about personhood.

MS1: What I do with my body is no one else’s business, and the mostly right-leaning pro-life movement embraces this principle in most other areas.

GW1: But what you do with your body is everybody’s business if you use your body to harm or kill others. This is what can happen against fetal persons.

MS1: Even if one could justify a fetus as being a human (even if only a potential human), that still does not make it a person.

GW1: From the zygote stage it is a human organism, but it is not a human person until it acquires the capacity for consciousness later on in the womb.

MS1: However, although asking the unborn can never be more than a thought experiment,...

GW1: Well it depends on what you mean by “asking.” Is it not possible to “ask” without words? Suppose we place pregnant women in a scanner such that we can monitor the activation of brain areas of the fetus at different weeks from conception. Suppose we present a distinct tone to the fetus and we monitor activity in its auditory cortex. I predict that we will get a particular curve when percentage of fetuses with an activated auditory cortex is plotted on the Y-axis against weeks since conception on the X-axis. It will be an S-shaped curve, going from 0% to 100% in the space of maybe two weeks. This is a testable hypothesis. By this procedure we can “ask” the fetus “Are you conscious of this tone?” without using words.

MS1: Given the choice between asking the fetus in a thought experiment and actually asking the woman what she thinks should be done, it is logical to give the moral nod to the woman.

GW1: Not if the fetus is also a person. Possession of a language is not a necessary feature of a current person. But possession of the current capacity for consciousness is.

MS1: Given the choice between the potential rights of the fetus and the actual rights of the woman, it makes more sense to go with what already exists in fact over what might exist in potential.

GW1: Using your argument, white slave owners might have said “Given the choice between the potential rights of blacks and the actual rights of whites, it makes more sense to go with what already exists in fact over what might exist in potential.” This is fallacious reasoning.

GW1: But the fetus should be assigned actual rights when it becomes a person in the womb. Then you may get a conflict in rights between the fetal person and the mother. We must have moral rules to resolve those conflicts.

MS1: To take away an important source of reproductive control from women by outlawing abortion would be a significant step backward in the historical trajectory of liberty.

GW1: We should not outlaw abortion any more than we should outlaw gun ownership. We should regulate and limit both.

MS1: All of this ratiocination, it must be said, is not to claim that abortion is moral, only that is it not immoral.

GW1: Sometimes abortion is moral and sometimes it is immoral. For sure it is immoral when it violates the rights of any person involved.

MS1: If abortion is not murder, then it is not illegal from a political position.

GW1: Whenever abortion is morally wrong and it results in harm or death, then it should be illegal. That is a legitimate political position.

MS1: In a 2018 article on “Personhood and Abortion Rights” in Skeptic, psychologist Gary Wittenberger presents substantial medical and scientific evidence that the perception of pain does not come online until around 20-24 weeks of gestation, and something resembling consciousness not until 28-36 weeks of gestation.

GW1: That is a little different from what I concluded in the article. This is an exact quote: “A comprehensive review of the relevant scientific literature remains to be done. However, based on the evidence presented here, general conclusions may be reached. The best estimate for the onset of consciousness in the fetus (especially the beginning of pain perception) is at 27 weeks gestational age which is roughly 25 weeks from conception.”

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