After 3,000 years of anti-Semitic hatred, pogroms, genocides, and a Holocaust that nearly exterminated the Jews, how can anyone fault Israel and the Jewish people for defending themselves?
Oh my lord! Are you really this stupid: you don’t think innocent lives are lost in the pursuit of freedom and in war: try selling that to all of the world who lost family members in WW2! What nonsense - a complete Pollyanna illusion!
Innocent lives are lost, yes, but they should not be deliberately targeted. Not journalists, not medics, and especially not children...even if they're throwing stones at your tanks.
Sigh. Would you like to be in Charge of executing a war? I only ask because if more people like you would just rise through the ranks and make it all the way to general then maybe we would all have a chance. Because in your estimation. Well. It’s easy. You make it sound so easy. Just “don’t target civilian?!” Seems easy. And it is. All you have to do as a general is not target civilians. Easy.
Except.
What’s a civilian? I always ask this question. In fact let me put it into terms so I can reverse it. Because I think it’s so important to think about it this way. Is a civilian a wife that isn’t a uniformed combatant? Easy to say yes! So easy right? I mean yeah. They might : hide, feed, lie for, raise, encourage, and generally cover for terrorists. But they’re “civilians”. You know. They’re not part of it. Even if they raise their children to hate Jews. They’re innocent.
Let me ask. And really think about this. If a man burns a cross on a lawn in Alabama. He’s a racist. A vile member of an organization bent on hating and if given the chance killing black people. He goes home after a job well done (burning a cross). His wife hugs him. She’s so proud of him. She loves him for his fight. She wakes their child up to tell them how strong daddy was today. He went out and fought for us whites!! He’s a hero. But you can’t tell anyone. Because it’s a secret. The cops come
By the next day. Of course she lies for her husband “he was here all night officer”. She’s a “shield”. But she’s into it. She loves it. She supports it. She wants it. She keeps it quiet at work. Her coworkers don’t know. And any that do she is careful also agrees with and will
Cover for these actions.
Now tell me. Is that woman uninvolved? Does she do nothing in this scenario? Is she simply a “civilian”.
When a country goes to war. The COUNTRY goes to war. Not the military. Not the government. Everyone. Is it fair? Nope. You want a country? You want a group of leaders that are radical religious wackjobs looking for a fight? You support that? Then you support the actions. You support the war. And you support the killing of
Not seeing a lot of anti war protests in Palestine. Oh wait. That’s because they’d be killed for them. And not by the government. They’d get lynched by all those “innocent civilians” people keep mentioning.
oct 7 was a false flag event.... orchestrated by israel to justify ethnic cleasning..... Hamas created by israel, not supported by palestinians, to use for this very purpose.
"It does not include (...)" Actually, I think it does. Allied strategic bombing of the axis powers in World War II brought vastly more civilian victims and collateral damage than anything seen in Gaza or Lebanon and, in my view, of course it was justified. Does anyone seriously dispute that? I am not suggesting that one cannot disagree with me on this point, but it seems a bit of a stretch.
The use of the term "civilian targets" in the comment is unfortunate in that - whether intentionally or not - it implies that the IDF attack "civilian targets" without a legitimate reason ("legitimate" as in "legitimate under the laws of war"). If, say, a school doubles as a Hamas facility, is that a reason not to attack it under any circumstances, regardless of the value of taking out the military target? One may certainly hold that view and consider such a prohibition as absolute (even in good faith), but that is not what the laws of war (or what I think of as "common sense") say.
To speak of "murdering thousands of innocent women and children" is another inappropriate formulation, "murder" being something quite different from accepting civilian casualties in the pursuit of military objectives.
It may or may not be a point applicable to this particular comment, but somehow I get the impression that the oft-heard claim that Israel is (too) indiscriminate in its use of force is really a veiled way of saying that Israel only discriminates sufficiently if it loses.
You think Israel's right to defend itself includes "defending itself" from children like Hind Rajab, a five year old whose family was killed, and who was waiting for an ambulance to come and save her? The IDF murdered her - yes, murdered her - deliberately, as well as the ambulance crew who came for her. To defend this is beyond my comprehension, no matter which side did the shooting and which side's child was the target.
I have enjoyed reading you for a long time and find your essays to be thoughtful and well written and argued. However, your defending Israel's actions over the past year is very misguided and highly objectionable.
How can you as a human being be ok with the killing of thousands of children? Does the sight of small body bags on a daily basis not disgust you? Putting this aside, do you not see that all that this achieves is simply to enrage a new generation of Palestinians who have nothing left to lose and will become tomorrow's "terrorists"?
Simply labelling anyone who disagrees with Israel's actions as an anti-Semite (or for Jewish person as a "self-hating Jew") is abhorrent. Israel uses such labels to silence any criticism and for you to do the same is, with all due respect, deserving of contempt. I am not an anti-Semite and have many Jewish friends and respect and admire Jewish culture but I do find Israel's actions to be completely unacceptable and I should be allowed to state this irrespective of the 3000 years of anti-Semitism.
Similarly, why should the Palestinians pay the price for 3,000 years of ant-Semitism? This has nothing to do with them. They were expelled from their homes and ethnically cleansed and have simply been fighting for justice and dignity. The people who did this to them are Jews and so naturally their anger will be directed at Jews rather than Taoists or Mormons! This has nothing to do with anti-Semitism.
Hamas' actions on October 7th were despicable but Hamas does not represent Palestinians and even if they did, the issue did not suddenly start on October 7, 2023. Palestinians have been denied their rights for three quarters of a century! They were being denied their rights since before Hamas' founding. Hamas and its nefarious activities cannot be used as an excuse for continuing to deny Palestinians their right.
You also ignore the reality that Israel helped Hamas in its early days as a counterbalance to Fatah / Palestinian Authority. Hamas and Netanyahu and other extremists in Israel need each other, they can only survive and thrive if the other exists.
You also ignore the settlement activity in the West Bank that continues year after year in contravention of UN resolutions as well as the call of current Israeli ministers to ethically cleanse Palestinians. I could go on but you get the picture.
You really need to educate yourself on this conflict and take a more balanced and unbiased view and stop peddling Israeli government propaganda.
Another example of someone - you - consumed by the D-K effect, ignoring history and woefully uneducated on the facts! For example, the UN, which you seem to hold in such esteem, is the very organization that has set the fox to guard the henhouse with their appointing Iran to be the watchdog for women’s rights!! Only 3 countries opposed - Canada, US amount the 3! So maybe check your facts, dispense with the rhetoric and sensationalism and inflammatory comments, and educate yourself: maybe familiarize yourself with the Abraham Accords, and the number of times Palestine (which is NOT a place) have rejected peace. Couple this with the fact that for umpteen years, Northern Israel has been fired on almost daily, etc., and then reread this wonderful, scholarly article again! Palestinians aren’t wanted anywhere - not by Jordan, Egypt etc, so where you are getting your info from us beyond me, but it’s not accurate or historical fact! The idea that extremists need each other is complete psycho-babble and insults rational thought!
Let me set the record, your record straight: Hamas DOES represent Palestinians: in fact more than 70% of Palestinians support this terrorist organization. You can call it what you like, spin it any way that soothes your emotions, but that will NOT change the facts! Frankly, I’m sick and tired of people spouting their version of history, while woefully ignorant of the facts, unwilling to educate themselves, and so consumed by the D-K effect that all critical thinking skills are a foreign concept!
I am completely with Michael on this issue. When a foreign state (or bad actors allowed within a foreign state) constantly attacks you, it is legitimate for the besieged state to do what is necessary to defend itself.
Honestly, I kind of blame Israel for being too soft. I think if they made it crystal clear that any attack would be met with utter elimination of the belligerent force, that they wouldn’t be harassed so often.
The San Diego example (where I live) is a good analogy and one I have used before. Someone could legitimately argue that San Diego was stolen from Mexico (the final battle took place within sight of my back yard). However, if bad actors in Tijuana were intent on using terrorist acts and bombs upon us, I would expect our government to make it stop. If it continued as it has in the Middle East for years, I would expect (no demand) that TJ be eliminated as a threat. Totally eliminated.
You can disagree with me. You can consider me immoral. But that is what I believe we would do, and what I believe we should do.
Hamas did or does represent Gazan Palestinians as their elected representative. They may have second thoughts if given a chance. I also have enjoyed and really learned a lot from Mr Shermers books and writings over a long period BUT on this issue he has been rather selective in relevant facts about the history of the issue which cannot be ignored if one wishes to have a serious view of the rights and wrongs. To correct his misunderstandings or knowledge gaps he might profit by reading and studying some of the significant new Israeli historians such as Benny Morris, Ilan Pappe, Norman Finkelstein, Shlomo Sand, and a few others but also the significant Palestinian authors. The war did not start 7 October 2023.
You said it: the invaded have the right to fight the invaders. " If you don’t want to face the consequences, don’t start a war". The Zionists are the invaders who started the war and Israel is the occupier who for 76 years has been treating the occupied in an atrocious manner (read, please, Gideon Levy and Amira Hass, and please, invite them to your program).
I’ve been a fan of yours for many years. I’ve read many of your books and also follow your podcast regularly. I enjoy your intelligence and skepticism. However, I’m astonished that you, Sam Harris and others so resolutely take a one-side stance in this conflict. This is a conflict with no good or bad sides, this is a conflict without right or wrongs; surely a skeptic as yourself would see that. You have had authors on your show such as Kevin Dutton on Black-and-White Thinking, and more recently Adam Kirsch on Settler Colonialism which must have had some impact.
This is not a conflict that began on 7 October 2023. You call yourself historian, but seem to ignore the obvious plight of the Arabs living in Palestine at the Jewish settlement. The ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians during the 1940’s has been widely reported by several historians. See for example Ilan Pappe’s book: https://www.audible.com/pd/B077KDZRCX?source_code=ASSORAP0511160006&share_location=library_overflow. If Israel really wanted to develop a peaceful state in 1948 they shouldn’t have started by ethnic cleansing of the people who lived there. That’s not a recipe for peaceful coexistence. But it’s also understandable why Jews developed such aggressive nationalist behavior after being ostracized for 1000s of years. Not even the US and UK were particularly interested to help Jews escape the holocaust during WW2. From 1947 and onwards it’s like Israel repeats behaviors of the Spanish Conquistadors and Americans conquering the Indians all over again! But the Amerindians did not have powerful neighbors with a totalitarian religion to support them.
Your analogy about Mexico is just ridiculous. A better example would be the Indian Wars triggered by colonialists and settlers. Looking up Indian Wars on Wikipedia you will find
* Sovereignty of various combatants extended or lost
* Massive indigenous population decline
* Deportation and forced assimilation of indigenous tribes
* Many treaties, truces, and armistices made and broken by combatants
* Indian reservationsestablished in the United States
That’s a true analogy.
Unfortunately, I don’t see a solution to this conflict. It’s like humans are completely unable to escape black-and-white thinking. There are only losers as a result.
Your article astounds me. Nothing, absolutely nothing justifies what Israel is doing. The extermination of 15,000+ children has no justification. Genocide is not justifiable.
I agree with you that what Hamas did was barbaric and not forgivable. But as a historian you will know that Israel stole their land from the Palestinians – Zionist militias supported by the Britain and the US. After all that the Jewish people have gone through one would think that they would be more compassionate for oppressed people. You say “Never Again” but Israel is doing it to the Palestinians again.
Consider how you would feel if a heavily armed militia kicked you out of your home and off your land without compensation. And in the process raped your daughter, killed your parents and thousands of your fellow countrymen. Then forced you to live in a concentration camp under cruel oppression. I know I would probably want to kill the bastards too. I blame Israel for this conflict, and also Britain and the US for making such a mess of the establishment of Israel. If it would have been done right in 1947, everything would have been different, and Hamas would not exist.
This completely changes my opinion of you. You are so very biased.
There is another problem about Israel besides the Palestinian issue. Even if the Palestinians had never existed, it would still be highly questionable if there should in the modern world be a separate country just for followers of one religion. If there should be a Jewish state, should there also be a Morman state, a Baptist state, a Jehovas Witness state, a Methodist state, or a Scientologist state?
The creation of Israel was a reactionary move, counter to the whole tendency of modern history. It should never have happened, quite aside from the prior existence of a native population on the land selected for it.
One argument in favor of creating a state for Jewish refugees at the time was to insure their safety. That argument has been debunked by history. The safest thing for their descendents would be to live in secular states with strong rules of separation of religion and state and strict constitutional protections for minority religions.
There was never any good reason for the formation of the modern state of Israel and it would be better for the world if it had never happened. And it is still not too late to dis-establish it and disperse the population to other countries where they could live in peace.
Israel is going to self-destruct in one more generation anyway even if all the Palestinians cease to exist. The birth rate for the majority secular Jews is a lot less than that of the hyper-religious Jews who will soon outnumber them. When that happens most of the secular Jews, at least the younger ones, will leave the country. Most of the Jews of European origin have an automatic right to citizenship in the country their parents or grandparents came from. They will also have no cultural problem fitting in to a secular European country.
The ones of Arab or Russian origin will not want to live in the countries their ancestors came from, but thanks to the very high standard of education in Israel and the fact that nearly all Iraelis are fluent in English, they too will be able to find someplace that will take them in as immigrants.
Israel will be left with only the hyper-religious faction and the elderly minority of the secularists who are too conservative to change countries and will eventually die out. And the religious faction will not be able to run a country because they limit their education to Bible studies.
Mr. Shermer, one word in the writing on the wall was when the formerly great magazine SA could no longer tolerate your humane reason.
I agree with you and speak and vote accordingly, in a swing state.
My "liberal" friends who think of themselves as good people see no paradox. They also see nothing wrong with celebrating a hope that Donald Trump will be assassinated, as his character successfully has been. This is a more effective strategy than honestly disputing policy positions. It was used by the Nazis against Jews.
One counters the social consensus, one voice at a time.
I have always known most of us would be the Nazis while grandiosely imagining we would not. Most Nazis are likely to have imagined they were good people. This is where the danger has always lain.
One hopes that modeling reason will change people. That is, alas, not my observation.
Post-modernists are correct about one thing. It matters very much what those in power believe. That is the fulcrum. What is a pragmatic response?
I am thankful that Musk has bought X and there is one social media platform not suppressed.
p.s. The thoughtless propaganda among your commenters is horrifying.
Critical thinking can not be taught or successfully modeled, in my observation. One is either capable of it, or not. You have optimistically dedicated your career to modeling critical thinking, and it saddens me to believe it is only to reach those of us who can already see things as you do.
If you have data showing that people can improve their ability to reason if critical thinking is demonstrated, I would be interested.
Well said. If Mexico attacked San Diego one could barely imagine the scale of a U.S. reponse. It would be irresponsible and enormous. And Mexicans are our blood brothers and friends.
Let’s say a Mexican cartel did a terrorist attack in San Diego like October 7th. And then the leaders and cartel members started to hide out among the civilian population of Mexico City, or another smaller city in another Mexican state in which they control. Would the USA government be justified in bombing the sh*t out of Mexico City or another city and killing thousands of civilians in order to kill these cartel members?
How into these cartels would the public be? I mean I imagine if a bunch of cartel members were “holing up” in Mexico City the citizenry would be ratting them the fuck out. Because they’re a real country full of rational people worried about their own self interest and not the unfortunate members of a death cult who don’t hide hamas members out of fear but do so with the tacit understanding that it is gods will that they kill Jews. And they’ll help as much as they can without “putting a uniform” on.
No, randomly bombing Mexico City would be insane, and I did’t suggest it would be proper in my response. I suggested our response would be huge and improper. Our response would be more destructive and improper than Israel’s response in Gaza and now against the assaults of its other neighbors, which is more proportional and understandable. I agree with Shermer’s basic premise.
When was the last election for Gaza? Why should civilians be condemed for something the government did?
I think the biggest issue I have with the comparison to Germany is that Hamas isn't capable of wiping out Israel. It's not the same comparison. More powerful countries have the responsibility to not murder an inferior force. Germany and Japan had every ability to take over the world at the time.
Hamas should be killed and wiped out, but if Israel doesn't rebuild Gaza and continues to murder innocent people they are just going to have another extremist beliefs attacking them in 20 years.
It also don't understand why people are not saying Israe government l bears responsibility for allowing such an attack to happen.
The sentiment that Palestinian should pay the price for the government they elected then answer this:
How many US cizitzens should be killed for Americans war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan? Families were murder by drone strikes and not for freedom. Those wars were not for safety they were for revenge and personal gain for Dick Cheney and Bush. Who should be harmed and attacked him to killed for the war crimes that the US has committed You willing to volunteer yourself?
More than 70% of Palestinian people support Hamas - a terrorist organization! That’s answer enough - provided you can employ critical thought!
PS: many of the West lost family members in both WW1&2 - you seem to be forgetting that little fact of life: was it “good”, NO, but there is always loss when good people defend freedom and are against tyranny - anywhere - any time!
Well that argument seems not to be mature and reasonable. There are Nazis that live in the US. Republicans exist that want to be dictators including the Republican presidental candidate. Should we be killing them?
It's not necessary for Israel to kill thousands of innocent children and civilians to defend themselves. Hamas isn't 1940 Germany.
If Republicans are successful in becoming dictators of the US they will become the most dangerous organization on the planet. How should we go about stopping them?
My nephew loads planes in Air Force. He sent the first. Bombs for the war and the first aid pallets. We send millions dollars bombs, then millions for aid for wounds from bombs! In short, it's one giant corporate money grab! Mike, im guessing owns stock in Raytheon!
Michael, you're usually so sober and thoughtful. Not here. It's not true that "vast swaths" of progressives have turned against Jews. They haven't even turned against Israel per se. They've turned against the way Israel has conducted its recent military actions against Palestinians.
"Or, if a more domestic example would help to make the point, if Mexican forces crossed the border into San Diego and murdered 1200 American citizens, would anyone object to or quibble with the U.S. military responding with full force to defeat the invaders?"
If "full force" equated to tens of thousands of Mexican civilians - men, women and children - dead, hundreds of journalists sniped for trying to report on the situation, and total destruction and uninhabitability for generations of the homes of millions, you bet your fucking ass that people with a moral center would object and quibble.
Someone seems to understand. Thank you, sir.
"Israel right to defend itself" does not include murdering thousands of innocent women and children
It does not include using 2000 lb bombs on civilian targets, phosphorus bombs, cluster bombs, and now, depleted uranium
Sorry Mike, your way off on this issue
Oh my lord! Are you really this stupid: you don’t think innocent lives are lost in the pursuit of freedom and in war: try selling that to all of the world who lost family members in WW2! What nonsense - a complete Pollyanna illusion!
Innocent lives are lost, yes, but they should not be deliberately targeted. Not journalists, not medics, and especially not children...even if they're throwing stones at your tanks.
Sigh. Would you like to be in Charge of executing a war? I only ask because if more people like you would just rise through the ranks and make it all the way to general then maybe we would all have a chance. Because in your estimation. Well. It’s easy. You make it sound so easy. Just “don’t target civilian?!” Seems easy. And it is. All you have to do as a general is not target civilians. Easy.
Except.
What’s a civilian? I always ask this question. In fact let me put it into terms so I can reverse it. Because I think it’s so important to think about it this way. Is a civilian a wife that isn’t a uniformed combatant? Easy to say yes! So easy right? I mean yeah. They might : hide, feed, lie for, raise, encourage, and generally cover for terrorists. But they’re “civilians”. You know. They’re not part of it. Even if they raise their children to hate Jews. They’re innocent.
Let me ask. And really think about this. If a man burns a cross on a lawn in Alabama. He’s a racist. A vile member of an organization bent on hating and if given the chance killing black people. He goes home after a job well done (burning a cross). His wife hugs him. She’s so proud of him. She loves him for his fight. She wakes their child up to tell them how strong daddy was today. He went out and fought for us whites!! He’s a hero. But you can’t tell anyone. Because it’s a secret. The cops come
By the next day. Of course she lies for her husband “he was here all night officer”. She’s a “shield”. But she’s into it. She loves it. She supports it. She wants it. She keeps it quiet at work. Her coworkers don’t know. And any that do she is careful also agrees with and will
Cover for these actions.
Now tell me. Is that woman uninvolved? Does she do nothing in this scenario? Is she simply a “civilian”.
When a country goes to war. The COUNTRY goes to war. Not the military. Not the government. Everyone. Is it fair? Nope. You want a country? You want a group of leaders that are radical religious wackjobs looking for a fight? You support that? Then you support the actions. You support the war. And you support the killing of
Not seeing a lot of anti war protests in Palestine. Oh wait. That’s because they’d be killed for them. And not by the government. They’d get lynched by all those “innocent civilians” people keep mentioning.
Don't target medics, don't target journalists, and don't target kids unless they're waving a gun or a bomb. It's easy.
oct 7 was a false flag event.... orchestrated by israel to justify ethnic cleasning..... Hamas created by israel, not supported by palestinians, to use for this very purpose.
Completely disagree.
generations of their propaganda has been used to leverage their right to do genocide
"It does not include (...)" Actually, I think it does. Allied strategic bombing of the axis powers in World War II brought vastly more civilian victims and collateral damage than anything seen in Gaza or Lebanon and, in my view, of course it was justified. Does anyone seriously dispute that? I am not suggesting that one cannot disagree with me on this point, but it seems a bit of a stretch.
The use of the term "civilian targets" in the comment is unfortunate in that - whether intentionally or not - it implies that the IDF attack "civilian targets" without a legitimate reason ("legitimate" as in "legitimate under the laws of war"). If, say, a school doubles as a Hamas facility, is that a reason not to attack it under any circumstances, regardless of the value of taking out the military target? One may certainly hold that view and consider such a prohibition as absolute (even in good faith), but that is not what the laws of war (or what I think of as "common sense") say.
To speak of "murdering thousands of innocent women and children" is another inappropriate formulation, "murder" being something quite different from accepting civilian casualties in the pursuit of military objectives.
It may or may not be a point applicable to this particular comment, but somehow I get the impression that the oft-heard claim that Israel is (too) indiscriminate in its use of force is really a veiled way of saying that Israel only discriminates sufficiently if it loses.
You think Israel's right to defend itself includes "defending itself" from children like Hind Rajab, a five year old whose family was killed, and who was waiting for an ambulance to come and save her? The IDF murdered her - yes, murdered her - deliberately, as well as the ambulance crew who came for her. To defend this is beyond my comprehension, no matter which side did the shooting and which side's child was the target.
well said
This is why Israel reacts so intensely.
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0902/S00029/paul-levy-israel-outgassing-its-unhealed-trauma.htm
they want the land.... wellthey want the world.... their god promised them the world and all mankind as slaves.... their recenr messiah repeated this promise... https://odysee.com/@Germanic-Heilkunde-Dr-Ryke-Geerd-Hamer:e/icon-of-resistance-part2-lanka:7
Michael,
I have enjoyed reading you for a long time and find your essays to be thoughtful and well written and argued. However, your defending Israel's actions over the past year is very misguided and highly objectionable.
How can you as a human being be ok with the killing of thousands of children? Does the sight of small body bags on a daily basis not disgust you? Putting this aside, do you not see that all that this achieves is simply to enrage a new generation of Palestinians who have nothing left to lose and will become tomorrow's "terrorists"?
Simply labelling anyone who disagrees with Israel's actions as an anti-Semite (or for Jewish person as a "self-hating Jew") is abhorrent. Israel uses such labels to silence any criticism and for you to do the same is, with all due respect, deserving of contempt. I am not an anti-Semite and have many Jewish friends and respect and admire Jewish culture but I do find Israel's actions to be completely unacceptable and I should be allowed to state this irrespective of the 3000 years of anti-Semitism.
Similarly, why should the Palestinians pay the price for 3,000 years of ant-Semitism? This has nothing to do with them. They were expelled from their homes and ethnically cleansed and have simply been fighting for justice and dignity. The people who did this to them are Jews and so naturally their anger will be directed at Jews rather than Taoists or Mormons! This has nothing to do with anti-Semitism.
Hamas' actions on October 7th were despicable but Hamas does not represent Palestinians and even if they did, the issue did not suddenly start on October 7, 2023. Palestinians have been denied their rights for three quarters of a century! They were being denied their rights since before Hamas' founding. Hamas and its nefarious activities cannot be used as an excuse for continuing to deny Palestinians their right.
You also ignore the reality that Israel helped Hamas in its early days as a counterbalance to Fatah / Palestinian Authority. Hamas and Netanyahu and other extremists in Israel need each other, they can only survive and thrive if the other exists.
You also ignore the settlement activity in the West Bank that continues year after year in contravention of UN resolutions as well as the call of current Israeli ministers to ethically cleanse Palestinians. I could go on but you get the picture.
You really need to educate yourself on this conflict and take a more balanced and unbiased view and stop peddling Israeli government propaganda.
Another example of someone - you - consumed by the D-K effect, ignoring history and woefully uneducated on the facts! For example, the UN, which you seem to hold in such esteem, is the very organization that has set the fox to guard the henhouse with their appointing Iran to be the watchdog for women’s rights!! Only 3 countries opposed - Canada, US amount the 3! So maybe check your facts, dispense with the rhetoric and sensationalism and inflammatory comments, and educate yourself: maybe familiarize yourself with the Abraham Accords, and the number of times Palestine (which is NOT a place) have rejected peace. Couple this with the fact that for umpteen years, Northern Israel has been fired on almost daily, etc., and then reread this wonderful, scholarly article again! Palestinians aren’t wanted anywhere - not by Jordan, Egypt etc, so where you are getting your info from us beyond me, but it’s not accurate or historical fact! The idea that extremists need each other is complete psycho-babble and insults rational thought!
Let me set the record, your record straight: Hamas DOES represent Palestinians: in fact more than 70% of Palestinians support this terrorist organization. You can call it what you like, spin it any way that soothes your emotions, but that will NOT change the facts! Frankly, I’m sick and tired of people spouting their version of history, while woefully ignorant of the facts, unwilling to educate themselves, and so consumed by the D-K effect that all critical thinking skills are a foreign concept!
I am completely with Michael on this issue. When a foreign state (or bad actors allowed within a foreign state) constantly attacks you, it is legitimate for the besieged state to do what is necessary to defend itself.
Honestly, I kind of blame Israel for being too soft. I think if they made it crystal clear that any attack would be met with utter elimination of the belligerent force, that they wouldn’t be harassed so often.
The San Diego example (where I live) is a good analogy and one I have used before. Someone could legitimately argue that San Diego was stolen from Mexico (the final battle took place within sight of my back yard). However, if bad actors in Tijuana were intent on using terrorist acts and bombs upon us, I would expect our government to make it stop. If it continued as it has in the Middle East for years, I would expect (no demand) that TJ be eliminated as a threat. Totally eliminated.
You can disagree with me. You can consider me immoral. But that is what I believe we would do, and what I believe we should do.
Hamas did or does represent Gazan Palestinians as their elected representative. They may have second thoughts if given a chance. I also have enjoyed and really learned a lot from Mr Shermers books and writings over a long period BUT on this issue he has been rather selective in relevant facts about the history of the issue which cannot be ignored if one wishes to have a serious view of the rights and wrongs. To correct his misunderstandings or knowledge gaps he might profit by reading and studying some of the significant new Israeli historians such as Benny Morris, Ilan Pappe, Norman Finkelstein, Shlomo Sand, and a few others but also the significant Palestinian authors. The war did not start 7 October 2023.
Norman “my neighbors need to be deported” finkelstein? Yeah no bias from him. Totally unbiased source.
Nobody is without bias- that is if they think at all but you cannot with any validity judge Finkelstein with an out of context quote.
such atrocities and seeing who defends them is very revealing
You said it: the invaded have the right to fight the invaders. " If you don’t want to face the consequences, don’t start a war". The Zionists are the invaders who started the war and Israel is the occupier who for 76 years has been treating the occupied in an atrocious manner (read, please, Gideon Levy and Amira Hass, and please, invite them to your program).
the traditionstarting from Moses was to invade other's land and genocide them then say they were right because their god told them to do it
Dear Michael,
I’ve been a fan of yours for many years. I’ve read many of your books and also follow your podcast regularly. I enjoy your intelligence and skepticism. However, I’m astonished that you, Sam Harris and others so resolutely take a one-side stance in this conflict. This is a conflict with no good or bad sides, this is a conflict without right or wrongs; surely a skeptic as yourself would see that. You have had authors on your show such as Kevin Dutton on Black-and-White Thinking, and more recently Adam Kirsch on Settler Colonialism which must have had some impact.
This is not a conflict that began on 7 October 2023. You call yourself historian, but seem to ignore the obvious plight of the Arabs living in Palestine at the Jewish settlement. The ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians during the 1940’s has been widely reported by several historians. See for example Ilan Pappe’s book: https://www.audible.com/pd/B077KDZRCX?source_code=ASSORAP0511160006&share_location=library_overflow. If Israel really wanted to develop a peaceful state in 1948 they shouldn’t have started by ethnic cleansing of the people who lived there. That’s not a recipe for peaceful coexistence. But it’s also understandable why Jews developed such aggressive nationalist behavior after being ostracized for 1000s of years. Not even the US and UK were particularly interested to help Jews escape the holocaust during WW2. From 1947 and onwards it’s like Israel repeats behaviors of the Spanish Conquistadors and Americans conquering the Indians all over again! But the Amerindians did not have powerful neighbors with a totalitarian religion to support them.
Your analogy about Mexico is just ridiculous. A better example would be the Indian Wars triggered by colonialists and settlers. Looking up Indian Wars on Wikipedia you will find
* Sovereignty of various combatants extended or lost
* Massive indigenous population decline
* Deportation and forced assimilation of indigenous tribes
* Many treaties, truces, and armistices made and broken by combatants
* Indian reservationsestablished in the United States
That’s a true analogy.
Unfortunately, I don’t see a solution to this conflict. It’s like humans are completely unable to escape black-and-white thinking. There are only losers as a result.
Greetings from Norway.
Your article astounds me. Nothing, absolutely nothing justifies what Israel is doing. The extermination of 15,000+ children has no justification. Genocide is not justifiable.
I agree with you that what Hamas did was barbaric and not forgivable. But as a historian you will know that Israel stole their land from the Palestinians – Zionist militias supported by the Britain and the US. After all that the Jewish people have gone through one would think that they would be more compassionate for oppressed people. You say “Never Again” but Israel is doing it to the Palestinians again.
Consider how you would feel if a heavily armed militia kicked you out of your home and off your land without compensation. And in the process raped your daughter, killed your parents and thousands of your fellow countrymen. Then forced you to live in a concentration camp under cruel oppression. I know I would probably want to kill the bastards too. I blame Israel for this conflict, and also Britain and the US for making such a mess of the establishment of Israel. If it would have been done right in 1947, everything would have been different, and Hamas would not exist.
This completely changes my opinion of you. You are so very biased.
There is another problem about Israel besides the Palestinian issue. Even if the Palestinians had never existed, it would still be highly questionable if there should in the modern world be a separate country just for followers of one religion. If there should be a Jewish state, should there also be a Morman state, a Baptist state, a Jehovas Witness state, a Methodist state, or a Scientologist state?
The creation of Israel was a reactionary move, counter to the whole tendency of modern history. It should never have happened, quite aside from the prior existence of a native population on the land selected for it.
One argument in favor of creating a state for Jewish refugees at the time was to insure their safety. That argument has been debunked by history. The safest thing for their descendents would be to live in secular states with strong rules of separation of religion and state and strict constitutional protections for minority religions.
There was never any good reason for the formation of the modern state of Israel and it would be better for the world if it had never happened. And it is still not too late to dis-establish it and disperse the population to other countries where they could live in peace.
Israel is going to self-destruct in one more generation anyway even if all the Palestinians cease to exist. The birth rate for the majority secular Jews is a lot less than that of the hyper-religious Jews who will soon outnumber them. When that happens most of the secular Jews, at least the younger ones, will leave the country. Most of the Jews of European origin have an automatic right to citizenship in the country their parents or grandparents came from. They will also have no cultural problem fitting in to a secular European country.
The ones of Arab or Russian origin will not want to live in the countries their ancestors came from, but thanks to the very high standard of education in Israel and the fact that nearly all Iraelis are fluent in English, they too will be able to find someplace that will take them in as immigrants.
Israel will be left with only the hyper-religious faction and the elderly minority of the secularists who are too conservative to change countries and will eventually die out. And the religious faction will not be able to run a country because they limit their education to Bible studies.
Mr. Shermer, one word in the writing on the wall was when the formerly great magazine SA could no longer tolerate your humane reason.
I agree with you and speak and vote accordingly, in a swing state.
My "liberal" friends who think of themselves as good people see no paradox. They also see nothing wrong with celebrating a hope that Donald Trump will be assassinated, as his character successfully has been. This is a more effective strategy than honestly disputing policy positions. It was used by the Nazis against Jews.
One counters the social consensus, one voice at a time.
I have always known most of us would be the Nazis while grandiosely imagining we would not. Most Nazis are likely to have imagined they were good people. This is where the danger has always lain.
One hopes that modeling reason will change people. That is, alas, not my observation.
Post-modernists are correct about one thing. It matters very much what those in power believe. That is the fulcrum. What is a pragmatic response?
I am thankful that Musk has bought X and there is one social media platform not suppressed.
p.s. The thoughtless propaganda among your commenters is horrifying.
Critical thinking can not be taught or successfully modeled, in my observation. One is either capable of it, or not. You have optimistically dedicated your career to modeling critical thinking, and it saddens me to believe it is only to reach those of us who can already see things as you do.
If you have data showing that people can improve their ability to reason if critical thinking is demonstrated, I would be interested.
Well said. If Mexico attacked San Diego one could barely imagine the scale of a U.S. reponse. It would be irresponsible and enormous. And Mexicans are our blood brothers and friends.
Let’s say a Mexican cartel did a terrorist attack in San Diego like October 7th. And then the leaders and cartel members started to hide out among the civilian population of Mexico City, or another smaller city in another Mexican state in which they control. Would the USA government be justified in bombing the sh*t out of Mexico City or another city and killing thousands of civilians in order to kill these cartel members?
How into these cartels would the public be? I mean I imagine if a bunch of cartel members were “holing up” in Mexico City the citizenry would be ratting them the fuck out. Because they’re a real country full of rational people worried about their own self interest and not the unfortunate members of a death cult who don’t hide hamas members out of fear but do so with the tacit understanding that it is gods will that they kill Jews. And they’ll help as much as they can without “putting a uniform” on.
No, randomly bombing Mexico City would be insane, and I did’t suggest it would be proper in my response. I suggested our response would be huge and improper. Our response would be more destructive and improper than Israel’s response in Gaza and now against the assaults of its other neighbors, which is more proportional and understandable. I agree with Shermer’s basic premise.
When was the last election for Gaza? Why should civilians be condemed for something the government did?
I think the biggest issue I have with the comparison to Germany is that Hamas isn't capable of wiping out Israel. It's not the same comparison. More powerful countries have the responsibility to not murder an inferior force. Germany and Japan had every ability to take over the world at the time.
Hamas should be killed and wiped out, but if Israel doesn't rebuild Gaza and continues to murder innocent people they are just going to have another extremist beliefs attacking them in 20 years.
It also don't understand why people are not saying Israe government l bears responsibility for allowing such an attack to happen.
The sentiment that Palestinian should pay the price for the government they elected then answer this:
How many US cizitzens should be killed for Americans war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan? Families were murder by drone strikes and not for freedom. Those wars were not for safety they were for revenge and personal gain for Dick Cheney and Bush. Who should be harmed and attacked him to killed for the war crimes that the US has committed You willing to volunteer yourself?
More than 70% of Palestinian people support Hamas - a terrorist organization! That’s answer enough - provided you can employ critical thought!
PS: many of the West lost family members in both WW1&2 - you seem to be forgetting that little fact of life: was it “good”, NO, but there is always loss when good people defend freedom and are against tyranny - anywhere - any time!
Well that argument seems not to be mature and reasonable. There are Nazis that live in the US. Republicans exist that want to be dictators including the Republican presidental candidate. Should we be killing them?
It's not necessary for Israel to kill thousands of innocent children and civilians to defend themselves. Hamas isn't 1940 Germany.
If Republicans are successful in becoming dictators of the US they will become the most dangerous organization on the planet. How should we go about stopping them?
Are…. Are you…. are you real?
I... I think .... I think therefore... I am
Just that was so much hyperbole in one comment from you.
It followed the logic of the comment I was responding to
How do you know this? And how many US citizens should be killed in the US because of the Iraq war?
My nephew loads planes in Air Force. He sent the first. Bombs for the war and the first aid pallets. We send millions dollars bombs, then millions for aid for wounds from bombs! In short, it's one giant corporate money grab! Mike, im guessing owns stock in Raytheon!
SPECIAL EFFECTS
I’m used to watching carnage on TV programs,
I’m always impressed with the special effects,
which seem so realistic and difficult to create::
guns, bombs, blasted bodies, pools of blood.
Its okay. Whenever I’ve had enough of it,
I finish my popcorn and change the channel.
None the worst for my experience, after all its not real.
But now its real: guns, bodies, the bombs, the blood
are there on the news screen in vivid shocking color,
the dead, disabled women and children are stark images.
The destruction of the infrastructure is Heroshima like.
I see corpses everywhere in the rubble and on roads
and changing the program and channel doesn’t end it.
The scenes stay in the mind like an unending nightmare.
The little girl with the missing leg and crutch,
somehow still able to move among the rubble,
the boys lying lifeless under howling mothers,
who beat their breasts and cry out Why? Why? Why?
There is no answer only more guns, bombs and death.
They wrap their dead in white sheets, cry, stand and pray.
Their hospitals, schools, mosques, are groesquely destroyed.
The statistics change and grow by day:
Now 42,000 dead, 97,000 wounded
52% are women and children, are they the enemy?
11,000 children dead, 2000 have lost limbs.
Israel claims it is precise as it drops 2000 bombs on refugee camps.
They kill 70 people to kill one Hamas officer. Proportionality?
International Law is trampled like dirt every day in Gaza.
I have never seen, in my long life, this kind of human slaughter.,
I find it hard to believe it is taking place, is it a lucid dream?
It transcends any scenes of destruction I have ever seen,
not a war, a mass massacre, a calculated killing machine
whom aim is vicious vengeance and absolute annihilation.
We watch an entire civilization being systematically decimated..
Their citiens wandering the streets with no safe place to go.
Where is the International community who cried “Never Again.”
They mouth meaningless criticism but do nothing to stop it.
And then they go through the motions of faux negotiations.
Meanwhile, malnutrition and starvation, bone raw skeletons, death.
We see the people begging, clamoring for food at aid stations,
while hundreds of aid trucks with food, water, energy are impeded.
They stop fuel and electricity in hospital dies with incubated babies.
A primitive barbarism fed by a hatred one can only call evil,
and which the International Justice Court calls genocide.
The ancestors of a holocaust, now ironically, committing one.
They kill terrorists creating many new terrorists by being one.
History should remember and record this new holocaust.
And the leaders who provided arms and bombs to create it
The United States supplying guns to Israel to kill innocents.
I wonder why or how an accident of birth saves me the same faith.
What did I do to deserve this and what did they do to deserve that?
Michael, you're usually so sober and thoughtful. Not here. It's not true that "vast swaths" of progressives have turned against Jews. They haven't even turned against Israel per se. They've turned against the way Israel has conducted its recent military actions against Palestinians.
What if say some crazy Kahanist became Israeli PM and decided to declare war on the United States? What would be the appropriate response?
Or even better let's say some crazy Kahanist supported a coup plot against the govt of the United States. What would be the appropriate response?
"Or, if a more domestic example would help to make the point, if Mexican forces crossed the border into San Diego and murdered 1200 American citizens, would anyone object to or quibble with the U.S. military responding with full force to defeat the invaders?"
If "full force" equated to tens of thousands of Mexican civilians - men, women and children - dead, hundreds of journalists sniped for trying to report on the situation, and total destruction and uninhabitability for generations of the homes of millions, you bet your fucking ass that people with a moral center would object and quibble.
falling for 1000s of years of jewish propaganda but as we see today the propapganda media is largely controlled by this group so its understandable