Puberty is a performance enhancing drug. When Male-to-Female trans athletes like collegiate swimmer Lia Thomas compete and win against biological females it is cheating and must end
I saw the Babylonbee AFTER I posted my column. Honestly! But they're so good that I would be proud to be inspired by them, and maybe even rip them off!
Actually I just discovered the theft this morning. A friend texted me with the phrase but not the link. And anyone who is reading this should sign up for Babylonbee. Their twitter account was suspended (again) because of their satirical piece naming Rachel Levine "Man of the Year"
Not only is this grossly unfair to women, and not only does this completely undermine Title IX, but the mainstream media treats this guy as some kind of oppressed victim, or someone who has had to “overcome” in some way, when the truth is, he’s boldly imposed himself on women and the single-sex sports they deserve to have without his disruption and interference.
I can’t tell you how many people I’ve talked to, decent people who are “on the fence” and want “inclusion,” who were totally unaware that this guy has an intact male body. People assume if he’s “trans” and “really a woman on the inside” it means he’s had surgery. They assume that’s what transition means. No. They don’t understand this was a mediocre straight male swimmer who is still a mediocre straight male swimmer, who is stealing victories from women. It’s outrageous.
Once again, Dr Shermer hits the nail on the head - this is a case of an unlevel playing field. It is clear that the situation is unfair but not so clear how to make it fair (to all).
One reason 'woke' became a pejorative is The Woke often oversimplify solutions and/or ignore resulting injustices to The Others (ie. groups aside from the one they are advocating). Of course, when folks point out that they are not reducing injustices but simply switching old injustices for new injustices they are attacked as racist, sexist, trans-phobic, etc.
We need more folks like Dr Shermer who advocate for actual fairness and justice rather than 'evening the score.'
He also mentioned the problem with a trans division: the small numbers of trans athletes. A problem he didn't mention is money! Colleges already have difficulty funding non-revenue sports: both men's & women's teams. If trans teams were added to Title IX Colleges would have even bigger problems funding athletics.
As far as creating an open division that allows doping & other performance enhancements - the NCAA would never go for that, besides, we already have professional sports to showcase laboratory assistance.
If the solution were easy there'd be no disagreement and little discussion!
ps. My GF's granddaughter calls her 'daddoo' - what a coincidence!
Let them compete with the men or women but then score them on their own. It happens all the time in sports. For example, triathlons have classes such as mens, womens, athena, clydesdale, etc. They don't hold a separate race for each of these classes. So if there is only one trans-athlete, then they always get gold, but don't take the gold away from the women. Heck, this sort of thing even happened in my college classes. Occasionally we had a small cluster of electrical engineer students taking a math or computer science class with mostly non-engineers. Professors would grade the EEs separately so as to not completely throw off the curve for the rest of the class.
I like this idea a lot. I wasn’t aware triathlons had implemented something like this. I thought that they had age divisions in addition to men and women and pro and amateur
It recognizes that men over 220lbs and women over 165 lbs are at a disadvantage in these long distance endurance races. However, the people in these weight ranges can choose to participate in those weight qualified classes. It was interesting to see the psychology behind the decisions to compete or not in the "big" people classes. In my limited experience men seemed more upbeat about being in the "draft horse" class than the women. However, some women were more than happy to be the only Athena competing as they got the gold medal and the first place swag.
Likewise, boxing and other combat sports have weight classes.
Patti, this is a perfect example of straw-man argument (or should I say straw-cis-man argument?) as literally NO ONE argues that "no cis woman athlete can beat a trans woman athlete ever." No one. And the link you provided is to a trans claiming that she's fighting for her very existence. I have stated here and elsewhere many times that I support trans rights as human rights. Full stop. But that doesn't mean one gets to trample on the rights of others. Again, please read my Skeptic column on conflicting rights:
And tell me your solution to the problem, namely in this case, when a MTF trans swimmer has an unfair physical advantage over women swimmers, who until recently were protected by Title IX law from being discriminated against. Thomas is literally taking a woman's rightly spot on the podium, and said women are losing not just the hard-earned pride in having outperformed their competitors, but all the benefits that accrue to them as successful collegiate athletes (scholarships, etc.). If I'm a transphobe then you're a misogynist. But let's drop the labels and find a solution for trans athletes to compete without violating the rights of women. What do you propose? If you read through the comments here you will find many interesting solutions. Which of them do you prefer?
Trans women competing against cis-women in sports is blatantly unfair. Future generations will marvel that we thought otherwise. It is unfortunate that speaking up in favor of women's hard-earned rights and in favor of acknowledging the physical reality of biology is considered anti-trans. They are separate issues and conflating them is a strategy.
Of course trans men are not competing against biological men. That is because this is not really about trans rights. It is about WINNING using any advantage permitted, winning awards and scholarships, depriving women who would have otherwise placed from doing so.
There should be separate leagues for trans-people if they are taking hormones and/or hormone blockers and hence can't compete on a level playing field with members of their own biological sex. The criteria for assignment to women's and men's teams should be unambiguous XX and XY chromosomes.
I agree that a powerful way to stop the current situation is for women to refuse to compete against trans-women. I gather the social ostracism is ferocious to do so, especially in collegiate sports. It will take courage. All people who first stood up for rights we now take for granted needed courage.
Not so simple. If a woman on the college swim team refuses to compete because a guy is on her team (or an opposing team) she will get a huge black mark beside her name and no Dean's letter. This will haunt her all her post-collegiate life especially at woke law and accounting firms who will not want her kind on the premises, in case whatever she has is catching. Best policy for women is just to smile through gritted teeth and remember college isn't real life. But messing up in college is.
Well, they say no rewards without risks. But I think if many athletes in a college swim team refuse to compete, not only females but also males in solidarity, the outcome can't be that bad. They can silence one person, or two, but not everyone.
I think you might not know how universities work. When you graduate you get a diploma and also a Dean’s letter. You don’t see the latter but you have to consent to its release to grad schools and professional schools. Many top-rung employers will want to see it, also. There is nothing to stop the Dean of your program of study from writing, “Jane Doe was terminated from the swim team over her display of trans-phobic and unsportsmanlike conduct for refusing to follow her coach’s direction to take her place in the starting blocks at such-and-such a swim meet.” The Deans can do this for every single swimmer who, in solidarity, joins the protest. Copy and paste. Every single one. The will know who the miscreants are because the university presidents will instruct the coaches to name names to the Deans. If the students are there on a swimming scholarship—athletic scholarships are the only way for white and Asian students to get a fair shake at Ivy League schools today—they must swim to keep their scholarships. Oh the outcome can be bad indeed. For everyone.
I wonder if Feminists realize that only in a patriarchy can men replace women. By allowing men to compete in women's sports and to enter female only safe spaces Trans affirming Feminists are doing the bidding of the patriarchy. Irony is a bitch.
Good point. Not sure I would call most trans rights advocates feminists. I thought feminism had succeeded and we were done, but apparently not. Feminism is a dirty, archaic word among young women with whom I speak. I am in favor of men's rights, too. Biological differences between men and women account for some cognitive and many social disparities, also an unpopular position. - a neo-feminist.
I'm all for trans people having the freedom to do whatever they want. But, when it comes to sports, there is a physical difference between men and women. If that difference gives an advantage to a trans participating in a sport only because the trans identifies with the gender of the players, then that's not fair to the same gender players.
Therefore, a person with a "Y" chromosome, indicating male, would not be allowed to participate in a sport that is intended for females. Likewise, a person with two "X" chromosomes, indicating female, would not be allowed to play in a sport that is all male. That means the issue is not one of social judgement. It is an issue of fairness to all athletes.
Of course, there can be cases where gender is ambiguous, not only outwardly, but even at the level of chromosomes. Those situations should be handled on a case by case basis.
I agree with the gist of your article. However, I would lose the inflammatory ideological phrasing such as "progressive woke ideology". It is divisive, fundamentally irrelevant, and distracting to your point, which would remain the same without such words. As I was reading the article, I was nodding in agreement until I read that phrase, when my hackles rose. Such rhetoric is a turnoff to many people, and if your goal is to make a legitimate point then you'd be better served not dragging ideological catchphrases in the conversation. As long as such phrasing remains a part of "conversations", true understanding suffers.
This is a very good point Dale. I shall delete the unnecessary referent that only serves to distract. The irony is that in editing an article for Skeptic I just redacted a similar phrase and explained to the author why the article is better without it. Thanks for the constructive feedback
I am a fierce advocate for equality for everyone but this does not necessarily translate to everyone being allowed to do whatever they want regardless. When I was a junior doctor doing my intern year in cardiology there was a resident who had wanted to do surgery but didn’t produce antibodies to the HepB vaccine. The rule is that if you are carrying out exposure prone procedures you must demonstrate Hep B immunity and they therefore could not become a surgeon.
Did this transgress their rights? We’re they subject to discrimination? No. The world is not always fair. Sometimes you have to accept this. MTF trans athletes may have to realise that they cannot fairly compete in female competitions and in some circumstances it could be dangerous (e.g. martial arts).
Already happened in MMA in 2015 with Fox able to indulge in violence against a Woman on the basis that he claimed he was a "woman". He broke his female opponents skull and caused concussion.
It was something that could and should not have happened. But, everyone decided because he said some magic words, he would be perfectly safe in the ring with a woman. It should have woken everyone up then in 2015....that it hasn't happened, proves that society is happy to sanction male violence on women and is continuing to allow gross unfairness now.
“Also, let's look at what academic sources have to say. And I'll cite my sources so no one can question their validity.”
“it is also important to know that any strength and endurance advantages a transgender woman arguably may have as a result of her prior testosterone levels dissipate after about one year of estrogen or testosterone suppression therapy. According to medical experts on this issue, the assumption that a transgender woman competing on a women’s team would have a competitive advantage outside the range of performance and competitive advantage or disadvantage that already exists among female athletes is not supported by evidence” NCAA Inclusion of Transgender Student-Athletes,NCAA Executive Committee, August 2011, pp.8, https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/inclusion/lgbtq/INC_TransgenderHandbook.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3aI6uXA5a9x_lgIfQgPQET8HxUYs6PMyw_98Bi6Mko_RbPBGVF2w9gyyM
“Yet, arguments supporting trans inclusion based on claims that most trans women’s testosterone levels are below the average testosterone counts of cis women and that they have no “male advantage” represent a slippery slope. The so-called male advantage is precisely the logic that justifies the hyperandrogenism regulation. It is crucial to remember that the regulation was implemented to replace IOC’s notorious sex control policy of gender verification. It was designed to exclude female athletes who were deemed too masculine and thus, not feminine enough. Contrary to popular perception, such measures do not protect women’s rights to compete; rather, they serve to perpetuate the male domination of sports and sustain the belief that men are superior athletes. This connection, or the slipperiness of the slope, is well illustrated through Harper’s role in designing the sex control policies in sport. As the chief medical physicist advising the IOC on transgender policies, Harper played a significant role in the publication of the updated transgender policy of 2015 that set the upper limit of testosterone to 10nmol/L for both trans women and women with intersex conditions. While advocating for trans inclusion in sport, Harper engaged in the design of a regulation that effectively issued ultimatums to some intersex/DSD women to choose between retiring from sport or medically altering their bodies.” Itani, S. (2020). The ‘Feminist’Discourse on Trans Exclusion from Sports. ジェンダー研究: お茶の水女子大学ジェンダー研究所年報, (23), 27-46. https://www2.igs.ocha.ac.jp/en/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/special-2.pdf
“Given these results, it is UNLIKELY that a transitioned male to female athlete with testosterone levels within the normal female range will retain the same relative ability after transition; a powerful argument for the performance enhancing effects of testosterone” Harper, J., Martinez-Patino, M. J., Pigozzi, F., & Pitsiladis, Y. (2018). Implications of a third gender for elite sports. Current sports medicine reports, 17(2), 42-44. https://journals.lww.com/acsm-csmr/Fulltext/2018/02000/Implications_of_a_Third_Gender_for_Elite_Sports.4.aspx.
“The initial fear that transgender women would dominate women’s sport has simply not materialised, in large part due to the effects of testosterone suppression. Transgender women are majorly underrepresented in elite level sport. For instance, there were approximately 4700 female competitors and 460 female medal winners in the Rio Olympic Games. Assuming that transgender individuals make up approximately 0.6% of the population, then there should have been 20 to 25 transgender women competitors and two or three medal winners at the 2016 Olympics.” Harper, J., Martinez-Patino, M. J., Pigozzi, F., & Pitsiladis, Y. (2018). Implications of a third gender for elite sports. Current sports medicine reports, 17(2), 42-44. https://journals.lww.com/acsm-csmr/Fulltext/2018/02000/Implications_of_a_Third_Gender_for_Elite_Sports.4.aspx.
And I also identified the attenuating effects on Lia Thomas's performances pre- and post-hormone therapy, acknowledging that there is some effect. But post-puberty treatment is not the same as pre-puberty, after which substantive physical differences remain, again, on average, between men and women. I disagree with the NCAA's ruling. If there were another solution to allow trans athletes to fulfill their aspirations without taking anything away from women athletes--such as a trans division or some modification of the divisions to allow more options (as in the triathlon example a reader provided above)--I would be in favor of it.
As for this final example of "attempts to exclude female athletes were deemed too masculine" I have personal experience of the issue. In the 1990s I was the Race Director of the 3000-mile nonstop transcontinental bicycle Race Across America (RAAM). In the early 90s it was evident that doping was rampant throughout our sport (mostly in Europe), both blood doping (injecting your own or a relative's blood drawn months before) and EPO (among other doping products), so I contracted with the UCLA drug testing center for athletes to test RAAM riders. This was before there was a test for EPO (which wasn't available until 2001). I instructed them to test for whatever it is they normally test athletes for. Just before the start of one of the RAAMs I got a call from the lab explaining that one of the female athletes had exceptionally high testosterone level, right on the border of what at the time was being used (in part) to define a male for athletic men/women's divisions. I rejected their suggestion to test her again as I wasn't going to exclude her from the race based on this one criteria (testosterone level) regardless of the level, because there are so many other factors to consider, and in any case she stood no chance of being any of the top men cyclists in the race, and it all worked out fine. I haven't checked to see if the NCAA (or any other sports' governing body) still considers testosterone levels as a disqualifying measure, but if they do I am against it.
Just saw this one Erin. I've been navigating this on my phone. I will read through these links you sent, but I did read the NCAA documents and supporting materials and remain skeptical of their conclusions, which I covered in this earlier article: https://michaelshermer.substack.com/p/trans-athletes-and-conflicting-rights?s=w
Your first source is blatantly false on its first point and sets up a straw-man on the second. Not all advantages are tapered off after HRT, some are others remain. And it is irrelevant whether or not a trans-woman falls within the range of female athletes as to his performance. Should men who have poor performance in certain sports be allowed to compete with woman because they suck at being athletic and thus fall within the range of woman performances? Furthermore, mediocre men (whether naturally that way or those that have transitioned with HRT) are highly more likely to end up at the top end of the woman's range thus causing an injustice and unfair advantage. The facade of this article is part of the problem not the solution.
The second is neither here nor there as well. The point is that they have an advantage related to T levels and utilization PERIOD! As such if they want to play the game then either change your body, hormone wise, according to the levels set or get the fuck back to competing with men. The levels set for them are still way above (10 nmol/L) the normal range for woman and they still complain. Ridiculous!
The third one is also irrelevant and misses the point. No one is arguing that a male who transitions to "female" and applies HRT will lose some advantages against other males - that in no way justifies him competing with females any more than other males who suck at being athletic even against other females while remaining a male. And there is no Third gender - there are male and female DSDs - intersex because male and female have a range to them. And mediocre males are not allowed to compete with females just because they have diminished capacity as males athletically and neither should males who call themselves 'females' and lower their T to levels 3-5 times that of normal females. BS!
Four and Five, Again, "dominating" is beside the point! Jesus this is getting old! I would not dominate the woman's 100m sprint. Should I test myself and use this science to compete with them. But I would fair a hell of a lot better than competing against males and in the process have an unfair advantage on a lot of woman since I could place in the top 20-25 of the woman's. And this lack of dominance is not solely because of T suppression (which helps but again misses the point) but because there are few of them at this stage who are but one category of men winning in female sports - the other more likely category is DSD not transgender. Again just because some males overlap onto the female range does not mean they should compete with woman.
Lastly, the same nonsense! If your frame is bigger then your ability to put on muscle given the same T levels and all else being equal, as a normal woman, is greater than a woman with average smaller frames. Come on! Your sources suck!
The only test needed, does the participant have the equipment to make a baby. That means they have the right chromosomes, harmon levels and menstraul cycle.
A final perspective: Some more stats yoinked from my friend Blake M Dremann post ...
“Also another about the ranking issue...
“There’s actually a good summary of her top rankings pre and post gender affirming care ( top ranking 11th in the country pre gender affirming care in her first two years of collegiate competition in male division) and comparing it to some well known cisgender swimmers like Katy Ledecky who had a similar rise in rankings over the years of competition in collegiate swimming.
“The instagram account is PinkMantaRay, and is a swimmer from Harvard. “
Ask Katie Ledecky if she’d like to do away with the women’s division in swimming and compete again men. She’ll explain why this comparison doesn’t work. She may be able to beat some men swimmers but not to best. Natural variation within two largely no overlapping bell curves of performances
Dude, Katie Ledecky can already beat this woman. Did you not see my other posts? She can swim the 500 meter 10 seconds faster than Lia.
Lia is not a man. She lost speed when she transitioned. She lost muscle tone when she transitioned. She's still tall and has lung capacity, but Katie Ledecky has similar features -- and beats Lia hands down. So what is your point, again?
For someone who claims to be a skeptic holding science and numbers up as something to revere over feelings, this entire post of yours is sadly lacking in science and isn't even aware of the numbers. How pathetic.
Erin, the proper comparison is not between Katie Ledecky and Lia Thomas. It is between the two barely overlapping bell curves between men and women swimmers. If you insist on using Ledecky as your example, then compare her times to the best male swimmer times. This article explores those times. While she may be the greatest female swimmer of all time, she's still 5-10% slower than the top men. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/peteraldhous/katie-ledecky-superhuman
You don't understand--you're making comparisons that do not biologically exist. Do you know about Katie Ledecky's biological sex makeup? It's not as easy as you think. But you're still not acknowledging the academic research I posted earlier. The occasional trans athlete is better than people in their birth-sex division. Nevertheless, I want you to go back and study how many transgender athletes there are and how many of them are dominating their sports and then come back and report.
You. Are. Not. Using. Science. So stop pretending that you're doing anything more than being petulant on behalf of women with only a rudimentary, child's understanding of biological sex, transitioning, and resulting physiology.
Ask Katie Ledecky if she’d like to do away with the women’s division in swimming and compete again men. She’ll explain why this comparison doesn’t work. She may be able to beat some men swimmers but not to best. Natural variation within two largely no overlapping bell curves of performances
Hm. You’re talking about Skeptic being based in science and facts. Here are some facts to consider.
By the way, I’m a feminist.
“… To all those pushing this false narrative that Trans People have an advantage in sports, and are using Lia Thomas as "proof", let me lay down some stats here ...
1650
Lia pre-transition: 14:54.765
Lia post-transition: 15:59.71 (lost 65 seconds)
Male record: 14:12.08 (Kieran Smith)
Female record: 15:03:31 (Katie Ledecky)
She was 40 seconds behind the male record, now she is 56 behind the female
500
Lia's best pre-transition, 4:18:72
Lia's current, 4:34:06
Female record (Katie Ledecky), 4:24:06
Male record (Kieran Smith), 4:06:32
200
Prior to transition 1:39.31
Male record, 1:29.15
After transition 1:41.93
Female record of 1:39.10
See a pattern here?
Not advantage, consistency
There's a reason that with all the Trans Women competing in sports for years, she is one of the only top ranking ones, because she's always been one of the top ranking.“
I have a recommended new title:
"NCAA Swimming Champ Caught In Possession Of Performance-Enhancing Testicles"
C'mon you stole that.
https://babylonbee.com/news/ncaa-swimming-champ-caught-in-possession-of-performance-enhancing-testicles
I saw the Babylonbee AFTER I posted my column. Honestly! But they're so good that I would be proud to be inspired by them, and maybe even rip them off!
It's always a bummer to be scooped.
Actually I just discovered the theft this morning. A friend texted me with the phrase but not the link. And anyone who is reading this should sign up for Babylonbee. Their twitter account was suspended (again) because of their satirical piece naming Rachel Levine "Man of the Year"
https://nypost.com/2022/03/21/babylon-bee-editor-we-refuse-to-bow-to-twitters-censorship-of-a-joke/
OK, I guess we won't cancel you.
Not only is this grossly unfair to women, and not only does this completely undermine Title IX, but the mainstream media treats this guy as some kind of oppressed victim, or someone who has had to “overcome” in some way, when the truth is, he’s boldly imposed himself on women and the single-sex sports they deserve to have without his disruption and interference.
I can’t tell you how many people I’ve talked to, decent people who are “on the fence” and want “inclusion,” who were totally unaware that this guy has an intact male body. People assume if he’s “trans” and “really a woman on the inside” it means he’s had surgery. They assume that’s what transition means. No. They don’t understand this was a mediocre straight male swimmer who is still a mediocre straight male swimmer, who is stealing victories from women. It’s outrageous.
Once again, Dr Shermer hits the nail on the head - this is a case of an unlevel playing field. It is clear that the situation is unfair but not so clear how to make it fair (to all).
One reason 'woke' became a pejorative is The Woke often oversimplify solutions and/or ignore resulting injustices to The Others (ie. groups aside from the one they are advocating). Of course, when folks point out that they are not reducing injustices but simply switching old injustices for new injustices they are attacked as racist, sexist, trans-phobic, etc.
We need more folks like Dr Shermer who advocate for actual fairness and justice rather than 'evening the score.'
He did suggest a solution. Give them their own division or create an open division that allows doping.
He also mentioned the problem with a trans division: the small numbers of trans athletes. A problem he didn't mention is money! Colleges already have difficulty funding non-revenue sports: both men's & women's teams. If trans teams were added to Title IX Colleges would have even bigger problems funding athletics.
As far as creating an open division that allows doping & other performance enhancements - the NCAA would never go for that, besides, we already have professional sports to showcase laboratory assistance.
If the solution were easy there'd be no disagreement and little discussion!
ps. My GF's granddaughter calls her 'daddoo' - what a coincidence!
Let them compete with the men or women but then score them on their own. It happens all the time in sports. For example, triathlons have classes such as mens, womens, athena, clydesdale, etc. They don't hold a separate race for each of these classes. So if there is only one trans-athlete, then they always get gold, but don't take the gold away from the women. Heck, this sort of thing even happened in my college classes. Occasionally we had a small cluster of electrical engineer students taking a math or computer science class with mostly non-engineers. Professors would grade the EEs separately so as to not completely throw off the curve for the rest of the class.
I like this idea a lot. I wasn’t aware triathlons had implemented something like this. I thought that they had age divisions in addition to men and women and pro and amateur
It recognizes that men over 220lbs and women over 165 lbs are at a disadvantage in these long distance endurance races. However, the people in these weight ranges can choose to participate in those weight qualified classes. It was interesting to see the psychology behind the decisions to compete or not in the "big" people classes. In my limited experience men seemed more upbeat about being in the "draft horse" class than the women. However, some women were more than happy to be the only Athena competing as they got the gold medal and the first place swag.
Likewise, boxing and other combat sports have weight classes.
That really is a great idea. It would give fantastic exposure while being fair to all.
Your proposal reminds me of "Eddie the Eagle"
For a second there I thought you were talking about the NRA mascot and I was really confused.
My kids were fans of the Animaniacs cartoon and "Daddoo" came from there.
Patti, this is a perfect example of straw-man argument (or should I say straw-cis-man argument?) as literally NO ONE argues that "no cis woman athlete can beat a trans woman athlete ever." No one. And the link you provided is to a trans claiming that she's fighting for her very existence. I have stated here and elsewhere many times that I support trans rights as human rights. Full stop. But that doesn't mean one gets to trample on the rights of others. Again, please read my Skeptic column on conflicting rights:
https://michaelshermer.substack.com/p/trans-athletes-and-conflicting-rights?s=w
And tell me your solution to the problem, namely in this case, when a MTF trans swimmer has an unfair physical advantage over women swimmers, who until recently were protected by Title IX law from being discriminated against. Thomas is literally taking a woman's rightly spot on the podium, and said women are losing not just the hard-earned pride in having outperformed their competitors, but all the benefits that accrue to them as successful collegiate athletes (scholarships, etc.). If I'm a transphobe then you're a misogynist. But let's drop the labels and find a solution for trans athletes to compete without violating the rights of women. What do you propose? If you read through the comments here you will find many interesting solutions. Which of them do you prefer?
Trans women competing against cis-women in sports is blatantly unfair. Future generations will marvel that we thought otherwise. It is unfortunate that speaking up in favor of women's hard-earned rights and in favor of acknowledging the physical reality of biology is considered anti-trans. They are separate issues and conflating them is a strategy.
Of course trans men are not competing against biological men. That is because this is not really about trans rights. It is about WINNING using any advantage permitted, winning awards and scholarships, depriving women who would have otherwise placed from doing so.
There should be separate leagues for trans-people if they are taking hormones and/or hormone blockers and hence can't compete on a level playing field with members of their own biological sex. The criteria for assignment to women's and men's teams should be unambiguous XX and XY chromosomes.
I agree that a powerful way to stop the current situation is for women to refuse to compete against trans-women. I gather the social ostracism is ferocious to do so, especially in collegiate sports. It will take courage. All people who first stood up for rights we now take for granted needed courage.
I applaud Shermer for speaking out.
No "cis". Just Women, and males pretending to be such.
Female athletes should boycott competitions, and male athletes should also boycott in solidarity. Then this insanity would end in no time.
Not so simple. If a woman on the college swim team refuses to compete because a guy is on her team (or an opposing team) she will get a huge black mark beside her name and no Dean's letter. This will haunt her all her post-collegiate life especially at woke law and accounting firms who will not want her kind on the premises, in case whatever she has is catching. Best policy for women is just to smile through gritted teeth and remember college isn't real life. But messing up in college is.
Well, they say no rewards without risks. But I think if many athletes in a college swim team refuse to compete, not only females but also males in solidarity, the outcome can't be that bad. They can silence one person, or two, but not everyone.
I think you might not know how universities work. When you graduate you get a diploma and also a Dean’s letter. You don’t see the latter but you have to consent to its release to grad schools and professional schools. Many top-rung employers will want to see it, also. There is nothing to stop the Dean of your program of study from writing, “Jane Doe was terminated from the swim team over her display of trans-phobic and unsportsmanlike conduct for refusing to follow her coach’s direction to take her place in the starting blocks at such-and-such a swim meet.” The Deans can do this for every single swimmer who, in solidarity, joins the protest. Copy and paste. Every single one. The will know who the miscreants are because the university presidents will instruct the coaches to name names to the Deans. If the students are there on a swimming scholarship—athletic scholarships are the only way for white and Asian students to get a fair shake at Ivy League schools today—they must swim to keep their scholarships. Oh the outcome can be bad indeed. For everyone.
I wonder if Feminists realize that only in a patriarchy can men replace women. By allowing men to compete in women's sports and to enter female only safe spaces Trans affirming Feminists are doing the bidding of the patriarchy. Irony is a bitch.
Good point. Not sure I would call most trans rights advocates feminists. I thought feminism had succeeded and we were done, but apparently not. Feminism is a dirty, archaic word among young women with whom I speak. I am in favor of men's rights, too. Biological differences between men and women account for some cognitive and many social disparities, also an unpopular position. - a neo-feminist.
I'm all for trans people having the freedom to do whatever they want. But, when it comes to sports, there is a physical difference between men and women. If that difference gives an advantage to a trans participating in a sport only because the trans identifies with the gender of the players, then that's not fair to the same gender players.
Therefore, a person with a "Y" chromosome, indicating male, would not be allowed to participate in a sport that is intended for females. Likewise, a person with two "X" chromosomes, indicating female, would not be allowed to play in a sport that is all male. That means the issue is not one of social judgement. It is an issue of fairness to all athletes.
Of course, there can be cases where gender is ambiguous, not only outwardly, but even at the level of chromosomes. Those situations should be handled on a case by case basis.
I agree with the gist of your article. However, I would lose the inflammatory ideological phrasing such as "progressive woke ideology". It is divisive, fundamentally irrelevant, and distracting to your point, which would remain the same without such words. As I was reading the article, I was nodding in agreement until I read that phrase, when my hackles rose. Such rhetoric is a turnoff to many people, and if your goal is to make a legitimate point then you'd be better served not dragging ideological catchphrases in the conversation. As long as such phrasing remains a part of "conversations", true understanding suffers.
This is a very good point Dale. I shall delete the unnecessary referent that only serves to distract. The irony is that in editing an article for Skeptic I just redacted a similar phrase and explained to the author why the article is better without it. Thanks for the constructive feedback
Yes, yes, yes. I just posted something to the same effect, but you said it much more eloquently. Thank you!!!
Very well said. But so obvious!!
I am a fierce advocate for equality for everyone but this does not necessarily translate to everyone being allowed to do whatever they want regardless. When I was a junior doctor doing my intern year in cardiology there was a resident who had wanted to do surgery but didn’t produce antibodies to the HepB vaccine. The rule is that if you are carrying out exposure prone procedures you must demonstrate Hep B immunity and they therefore could not become a surgeon.
Did this transgress their rights? We’re they subject to discrimination? No. The world is not always fair. Sometimes you have to accept this. MTF trans athletes may have to realise that they cannot fairly compete in female competitions and in some circumstances it could be dangerous (e.g. martial arts).
Already happened in MMA in 2015 with Fox able to indulge in violence against a Woman on the basis that he claimed he was a "woman". He broke his female opponents skull and caused concussion.
It was something that could and should not have happened. But, everyone decided because he said some magic words, he would be perfectly safe in the ring with a woman. It should have woken everyone up then in 2015....that it hasn't happened, proves that society is happy to sanction male violence on women and is continuing to allow gross unfairness now.
“Also, let's look at what academic sources have to say. And I'll cite my sources so no one can question their validity.”
“it is also important to know that any strength and endurance advantages a transgender woman arguably may have as a result of her prior testosterone levels dissipate after about one year of estrogen or testosterone suppression therapy. According to medical experts on this issue, the assumption that a transgender woman competing on a women’s team would have a competitive advantage outside the range of performance and competitive advantage or disadvantage that already exists among female athletes is not supported by evidence” NCAA Inclusion of Transgender Student-Athletes,NCAA Executive Committee, August 2011, pp.8, https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/inclusion/lgbtq/INC_TransgenderHandbook.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3aI6uXA5a9x_lgIfQgPQET8HxUYs6PMyw_98Bi6Mko_RbPBGVF2w9gyyM
“Yet, arguments supporting trans inclusion based on claims that most trans women’s testosterone levels are below the average testosterone counts of cis women and that they have no “male advantage” represent a slippery slope. The so-called male advantage is precisely the logic that justifies the hyperandrogenism regulation. It is crucial to remember that the regulation was implemented to replace IOC’s notorious sex control policy of gender verification. It was designed to exclude female athletes who were deemed too masculine and thus, not feminine enough. Contrary to popular perception, such measures do not protect women’s rights to compete; rather, they serve to perpetuate the male domination of sports and sustain the belief that men are superior athletes. This connection, or the slipperiness of the slope, is well illustrated through Harper’s role in designing the sex control policies in sport. As the chief medical physicist advising the IOC on transgender policies, Harper played a significant role in the publication of the updated transgender policy of 2015 that set the upper limit of testosterone to 10nmol/L for both trans women and women with intersex conditions. While advocating for trans inclusion in sport, Harper engaged in the design of a regulation that effectively issued ultimatums to some intersex/DSD women to choose between retiring from sport or medically altering their bodies.” Itani, S. (2020). The ‘Feminist’Discourse on Trans Exclusion from Sports. ジェンダー研究: お茶の水女子大学ジェンダー研究所年報, (23), 27-46. https://www2.igs.ocha.ac.jp/en/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/special-2.pdf
“Given these results, it is UNLIKELY that a transitioned male to female athlete with testosterone levels within the normal female range will retain the same relative ability after transition; a powerful argument for the performance enhancing effects of testosterone” Harper, J., Martinez-Patino, M. J., Pigozzi, F., & Pitsiladis, Y. (2018). Implications of a third gender for elite sports. Current sports medicine reports, 17(2), 42-44. https://journals.lww.com/acsm-csmr/Fulltext/2018/02000/Implications_of_a_Third_Gender_for_Elite_Sports.4.aspx.
“The initial fear that transgender women would dominate women’s sport has simply not materialised, in large part due to the effects of testosterone suppression. Transgender women are majorly underrepresented in elite level sport. For instance, there were approximately 4700 female competitors and 460 female medal winners in the Rio Olympic Games. Assuming that transgender individuals make up approximately 0.6% of the population, then there should have been 20 to 25 transgender women competitors and two or three medal winners at the 2016 Olympics.” Harper, J., Martinez-Patino, M. J., Pigozzi, F., & Pitsiladis, Y. (2018). Implications of a third gender for elite sports. Current sports medicine reports, 17(2), 42-44. https://journals.lww.com/acsm-csmr/Fulltext/2018/02000/Implications_of_a_Third_Gender_for_Elite_Sports.4.aspx.
Note: The first two openly trans women did not compete in the Olympics until the 2020 Olympics. New Zealander Weightlifter, Laurel Hubbard, failed all three of her lift attempts and American BMX biker, Chelsea Wolfe, never even made it off the reserve squad. https://www.insider.com/tokyo-2020-4-transgender-athletes-talk-about-their-olympics-experience-2021-8?fbclid=IwAR3ravqDofyS14-o1jtXMOGdQnmtM4NRJTiEYbwv8XsOwXzn__HNdLBpIhk
Trans women athletes themselves often rely on the fact that their bodies lose the “male advantage” after a period of hormone therapy and/or gender affirmation surgery. The frame of the body (the height and bone density) may stay, but trans women must often carry heavier bodies with an otherwise average female muscle mass. E.g. Joanna Harper (2019, April 1). “Sport’s Transgender debate needs compromise not conflict”,The Guardian. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2019/apr/01/sports-transgender-debate-compromise-not-conflict?fbclid=IwAR3E2oiyxBTes4IF6Bbc-4zo8_0S-WJuTyT7Qqu72xorUk5LakK_mf6DJ7g
I did indeed cover this issue in my previous article:
https://michaelshermer.substack.com/p/trans-athletes-and-conflicting-rights?s=w
And I also identified the attenuating effects on Lia Thomas's performances pre- and post-hormone therapy, acknowledging that there is some effect. But post-puberty treatment is not the same as pre-puberty, after which substantive physical differences remain, again, on average, between men and women. I disagree with the NCAA's ruling. If there were another solution to allow trans athletes to fulfill their aspirations without taking anything away from women athletes--such as a trans division or some modification of the divisions to allow more options (as in the triathlon example a reader provided above)--I would be in favor of it.
As for this final example of "attempts to exclude female athletes were deemed too masculine" I have personal experience of the issue. In the 1990s I was the Race Director of the 3000-mile nonstop transcontinental bicycle Race Across America (RAAM). In the early 90s it was evident that doping was rampant throughout our sport (mostly in Europe), both blood doping (injecting your own or a relative's blood drawn months before) and EPO (among other doping products), so I contracted with the UCLA drug testing center for athletes to test RAAM riders. This was before there was a test for EPO (which wasn't available until 2001). I instructed them to test for whatever it is they normally test athletes for. Just before the start of one of the RAAMs I got a call from the lab explaining that one of the female athletes had exceptionally high testosterone level, right on the border of what at the time was being used (in part) to define a male for athletic men/women's divisions. I rejected their suggestion to test her again as I wasn't going to exclude her from the race based on this one criteria (testosterone level) regardless of the level, because there are so many other factors to consider, and in any case she stood no chance of being any of the top men cyclists in the race, and it all worked out fine. I haven't checked to see if the NCAA (or any other sports' governing body) still considers testosterone levels as a disqualifying measure, but if they do I am against it.
Just saw this one Erin. I've been navigating this on my phone. I will read through these links you sent, but I did read the NCAA documents and supporting materials and remain skeptical of their conclusions, which I covered in this earlier article: https://michaelshermer.substack.com/p/trans-athletes-and-conflicting-rights?s=w
Your first source is blatantly false on its first point and sets up a straw-man on the second. Not all advantages are tapered off after HRT, some are others remain. And it is irrelevant whether or not a trans-woman falls within the range of female athletes as to his performance. Should men who have poor performance in certain sports be allowed to compete with woman because they suck at being athletic and thus fall within the range of woman performances? Furthermore, mediocre men (whether naturally that way or those that have transitioned with HRT) are highly more likely to end up at the top end of the woman's range thus causing an injustice and unfair advantage. The facade of this article is part of the problem not the solution.
The second is neither here nor there as well. The point is that they have an advantage related to T levels and utilization PERIOD! As such if they want to play the game then either change your body, hormone wise, according to the levels set or get the fuck back to competing with men. The levels set for them are still way above (10 nmol/L) the normal range for woman and they still complain. Ridiculous!
The third one is also irrelevant and misses the point. No one is arguing that a male who transitions to "female" and applies HRT will lose some advantages against other males - that in no way justifies him competing with females any more than other males who suck at being athletic even against other females while remaining a male. And there is no Third gender - there are male and female DSDs - intersex because male and female have a range to them. And mediocre males are not allowed to compete with females just because they have diminished capacity as males athletically and neither should males who call themselves 'females' and lower their T to levels 3-5 times that of normal females. BS!
Four and Five, Again, "dominating" is beside the point! Jesus this is getting old! I would not dominate the woman's 100m sprint. Should I test myself and use this science to compete with them. But I would fair a hell of a lot better than competing against males and in the process have an unfair advantage on a lot of woman since I could place in the top 20-25 of the woman's. And this lack of dominance is not solely because of T suppression (which helps but again misses the point) but because there are few of them at this stage who are but one category of men winning in female sports - the other more likely category is DSD not transgender. Again just because some males overlap onto the female range does not mean they should compete with woman.
Lastly, the same nonsense! If your frame is bigger then your ability to put on muscle given the same T levels and all else being equal, as a normal woman, is greater than a woman with average smaller frames. Come on! Your sources suck!
The only test needed, does the participant have the equipment to make a baby. That means they have the right chromosomes, harmon levels and menstraul cycle.
He, him. Thomas did not magically change sex. He, not she.
A final perspective: Some more stats yoinked from my friend Blake M Dremann post ...
“Also another about the ranking issue...
“There’s actually a good summary of her top rankings pre and post gender affirming care ( top ranking 11th in the country pre gender affirming care in her first two years of collegiate competition in male division) and comparing it to some well known cisgender swimmers like Katy Ledecky who had a similar rise in rankings over the years of competition in collegiate swimming.
“The instagram account is PinkMantaRay, and is a swimmer from Harvard. “
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CbNsq1Wv2KO/?utm_medium=copy_link
Have you ever seen Katie Ledecky? Cisgender women’s record holder in the 500?
Go check her out. Is she “cheating” because she’s six feet tall and has a huge cardiovascular system?
SMH.
Ask Katie Ledecky if she’d like to do away with the women’s division in swimming and compete again men. She’ll explain why this comparison doesn’t work. She may be able to beat some men swimmers but not to best. Natural variation within two largely no overlapping bell curves of performances
Dude, Katie Ledecky can already beat this woman. Did you not see my other posts? She can swim the 500 meter 10 seconds faster than Lia.
Lia is not a man. She lost speed when she transitioned. She lost muscle tone when she transitioned. She's still tall and has lung capacity, but Katie Ledecky has similar features -- and beats Lia hands down. So what is your point, again?
For someone who claims to be a skeptic holding science and numbers up as something to revere over feelings, this entire post of yours is sadly lacking in science and isn't even aware of the numbers. How pathetic.
Erin, the proper comparison is not between Katie Ledecky and Lia Thomas. It is between the two barely overlapping bell curves between men and women swimmers. If you insist on using Ledecky as your example, then compare her times to the best male swimmer times. This article explores those times. While she may be the greatest female swimmer of all time, she's still 5-10% slower than the top men. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/peteraldhous/katie-ledecky-superhuman
And Lia is slower than she is.
You don't understand--you're making comparisons that do not biologically exist. Do you know about Katie Ledecky's biological sex makeup? It's not as easy as you think. But you're still not acknowledging the academic research I posted earlier. The occasional trans athlete is better than people in their birth-sex division. Nevertheless, I want you to go back and study how many transgender athletes there are and how many of them are dominating their sports and then come back and report.
You. Are. Not. Using. Science. So stop pretending that you're doing anything more than being petulant on behalf of women with only a rudimentary, child's understanding of biological sex, transitioning, and resulting physiology.
Ask Katie Ledecky if she’d like to do away with the women’s division in swimming and compete again men. She’ll explain why this comparison doesn’t work. She may be able to beat some men swimmers but not to best. Natural variation within two largely no overlapping bell curves of performances
Hm. You’re talking about Skeptic being based in science and facts. Here are some facts to consider.
By the way, I’m a feminist.
“… To all those pushing this false narrative that Trans People have an advantage in sports, and are using Lia Thomas as "proof", let me lay down some stats here ...
1650
Lia pre-transition: 14:54.765
Lia post-transition: 15:59.71 (lost 65 seconds)
Male record: 14:12.08 (Kieran Smith)
Female record: 15:03:31 (Katie Ledecky)
She was 40 seconds behind the male record, now she is 56 behind the female
500
Lia's best pre-transition, 4:18:72
Lia's current, 4:34:06
Female record (Katie Ledecky), 4:24:06
Male record (Kieran Smith), 4:06:32
200
Prior to transition 1:39.31
Male record, 1:29.15
After transition 1:41.93
Female record of 1:39.10
See a pattern here?
Not advantage, consistency
There's a reason that with all the Trans Women competing in sports for years, she is one of the only top ranking ones, because she's always been one of the top ranking.“