I have a different question about the psychology of human belief: why are most people deliberately selective about how and when they embrace belief as valid, and when they at least claim to support rational objectivity, aka "science", over belief?
To provide a deliberately provocative example, why do so many American liberals dismiss Christian theology, including relics like the shroud, and its utility as a foundation for morality and politics, but then embrace Native American religion and all their associated totems, and eagerly create laws and policies in accordance with those animist beliefs? Is this an expression of more fundamental human desire for political advantage, or just an expression of typically irrational and inconsistent human psychology?
Can you name liberals who believe in Native American religion (other than some Native Americans) and name the laws and policies you claim are based on animist beliefs? Thank you.
There is a rock called ''The Devil's Nose, in Wyoming that is no longer open for rock climbers because a tribe complained that it is sacred in their religion. The Park Service then banned anyone from climbing it.
Members of the Hopi tribe are allowed to take baby eagles, a protected species, from a National Monument, a protected area, for rituals that violate animal cruelty laws.
There are numerous other examples of laws that grant special privileges to Indians on reliigious grounds.
I think you are a little unjust. “Embrace” does not mean “believe”, and “in accordance with” does not mean “based on”. The final question - “political advantage, or… irrational… psychology” - is real and important.
The sample was not from the main part of the cloth it was taken from a repaired part of the shroud there’s photographic evidence to it. So you have a whole article stating the shroud is from the 14th century and therefore is not the burial cloth of Jesus and you sight ONE piece of evidence for it being a fraud? How about the fact that no one can come up with an explanation on how the image was formed? The best anyone has come to explain it was the use of some 1400 lasers being set off at the same time in a split second? I’m not a scientist but I would think that might be a hard thing to do in the 1300’s(note the sarcasm)…how about the fact that the blood(yes it’s real blood) seaps through to the back of the cloth yet the image is only a few hairs deep? Meaning that the blood was there first then the image after…why would a forger go through all that trouble? Why is there blood on the wrist and not on the hands? All images of Christ show the nails through the hands in paintings in that era…why and how would a forger know to put the nails through the wrists? How about the new evidence to the date of the shroud that just came out in 2024 dating it back to the first century? It’s truly amazing that on one side you have all this evidence to its authenticity being about 10 feet high and on the side of it being a fake you have one piece of evidence that’s about a centimeter high.
This article seems to ignore all the evidence except the carbon dating, and yet there is strong evidence that the test strip was taken from a mediaeval repair, which would invalidate the entire 14th century fake claim as based on the C14 test.
I've been following developments on the Shroud for the past 40 years. I stayed as a "skeptic" and eventually became a believer that perhaps it is the cloth that covered Jesus and proof of his resurrection. Why do I believe that? Just about every skeptics' articles and research focus on the Carbon 14 dating, even though one of the scientists involved in doing the test admitted years later that there were indeed issues with the sample and the process they used. But regardless, not one skeptic has followed their research and studies with a credible theory of how the image was created. Even the most skeptical scientists agree today that the image was formed by a process that dehydrated a minuscule part of the top fibrils of the threads that were "scorched" in the process of creating the image. No one to date, even using the most sophisticated technology available, has been able to replicate a portion of the image, much less an entire, full-length image on the Shroud. So then the question: if it is not a legitimate cloth that covered Jesus created by a process that now one to this day has been enel to replicate, then how was it created? Every single skeptic fails to provide a credible process that has been tested and proven to replicate the image on the Shroud.
If the Shroud was a 14th century fake, apart from all the forensic data on it being a scorch more than a painting, how can the exact matching with the Sudarion face cloth be accounted for? Doubtless you know that the Sudarion has a provenance dating back to at the very least the 11th century when it was witnessed by King Alphonso?
That actually may be the shroud of Judas. When the Disciples found out that he was the one who squealed on Jesus, they were pretty upset. So, after the Last Supper, the disciples decided to send Jesus to India with his pregnant girlfriend, Mary Magdalene. Then they got Judas really drunk, dressed him up and put on some makeup to made him look like JC (the guards didn’t know what Jesus looked like anyway.) They then presented Judas for execution with him mumbling incoherently.
Meanwhile, Jesus and Mary got to India, learned to speak Hindi, had a couple of kids, established a Kashmir sweater company and lived happily thereafter. In fact, you can see Jesus’s grave, called the Roza Bal Shrine, in downtown Srinagar, India. There is a small charge.
Forensic analysis indicates that it is a scorch on the linen. There is no paint or dye. Also the V-8 image scanner produces an image unlike any ever painted or drawn.
If Jesus truly was the "son of God" why does the Bible portray him as a failed apocalyptic prophet, which is the general consensus of critical scholarship?
*Jesus is clearly speaking to the disciples and gives a timeframe for when the Son of Man would come.*
*"Jesus sent these twelve out,* charging them, saying: Do not go into the way of the nations, and do not go into a Samaritan city. *But rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.* And going on, proclaim, saying, The kingdom of Heaven has drawn near" (Matthew 10:5-7)
“Truly I say to you, ***you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes”*** (Matthew 10:23);
For the *Son of man* shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; ***and then he shall reward every man according to his works.***
Truly I tell you, ***some who are standing here will not taste death*** before they see the *Son of Man* coming in his kingdom (Matthew 16:27-28)
Truly I tell you, ***some who are standing here*** will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God (Luke 9:27)
Truly I tell you, ***this generation will certainly not pass away*** until all these things have happened (Mark 13:30)
*He says that the coming of the Son of Man will be accompanied by:*
The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
Then will appear the sign of the *Son of Man* in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the *Son of Man* coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Truly I tell you, ***this generation will certainly not pass away*** until all these things have happened (Matthew 24:29-34)
There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the *Son of Man* coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near. When you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.
Truly I tell you, ***this generation will certainly not pass away*** until all these things have happened (Luke 21:25-32)
He also falsely prophesied to the high priest, the Sanhedrin and Nathaniel.
*Jesus falsely prophesied to the high priest and the Sanhedrin*
Jesus also falsely prophesied to the high priest and the Sanhedrin (assemblies of either twenty-three or seventy-one rabbis appointed to sit as a tribunal)
You will see the *Son of Man* sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and ***coming on the clouds of heaven*** (Matthew 26:64) (Mark 14:62)
Except the high priest and the Sanhedrin never saw Jesus sitting at the right hand side of God, or coming on the clouds of heaven, or any such thing.
*Jesus falsely prophesied to Nathaniel*
Jesus also falsely prophesied to Nathaniel when he declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.”
Jesus said, You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You will see greater things than that. He then added, ***“Very truly I tell you, you will see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man*** (John 1:50-51)
*Nathaniel never saw any such thing. Neither did anyone else.*
"However, this “information” is incorrect, and the media did not bother to check the reliability of what they published. If we examine the reports closely, here is what actually happened:
The article by the Italian scholars was published in 2022, so it is not new.
2 The simple facts are that a news outlet in the U.S. broke the news two years late—and then many others simply copied from it.The proposed dating system is not normally used nor has it been validated by the scientific community. It is based on the use of X-rays (Wide- Angle X-ray Scattering, or WAXS), which are supposed to measure the degradation of cellulose fibers. This system was invented in 2019 by these very same authors, and for the purpose of dating the Shroud, and so is not used by anyone else.
3The method is highly unreliable, because tissue aging is strongly influenced by environmental factors, such as humidity, temperature, light exposure, storage conditions, and the possible presence of microorganisms or of various chemicals, all of which are unpredictable variables that can heavily alter the results. Thus, it cannot provide a reliable dating that is remotely comparable to that provided by the proven Carbon-14 method, which dates the Shroud as being of medieval origin.
The inventors of the WAXS method are not neutral scientists; they are sindonologists (i.e., people who study the Shroud of Turin from a believing perspective; from the Greek word sindòn, used in the Gospels to define the type of fine fabric, undoubtedly linen, with which the corpse of Jesus was believed to be wrapped), and who for years have been trying hard to prove that the Shroud is authentic. None of them are experts in either dating or textiles. The main proponents of the research are Giulio Fanti and Liberato De Caro. Both share the commonality of being followers of the Italian pseudomystic Maria Valtorta, who died in 1961, and who, bedridden by illness, told of receiving heavenly messages and seeing the entire life of Christ, which she described in many books. Although the Catholic Church has put these books on the Index (that is, a catalog of writings condemned as contrary to faith or morals), Fanti and De Caro believe in Valtorta’s visions. Fanti also believes he received personal messages from Jesus and Our Lady, and De Caro, a deacon, is known for his belief in creationism.The authors were never allowed to extract material directly from the Shroud. What they used was a very small sample (approx. 0.5 mm × 1 mm), which they claim originally belonged to the Shroud.
Between 2014 and 2022, these two authors have already invented four different systems to date textiles in order to authenticate the Shroud: measurement of the mechanical properties of individual linen fibers, Raman spectroscopy, Fourier transform infrared spectroscopy (Fanti), and WAXS (De Caro).Their conclusions are considered so unreliable that even a journal published by the Center for Sindonology in Turin (which pursues proof of the Shroud’s authenticity) urged people to be cautious of their conclusions.4"
"The blood on the Shroud is bright red, and blood turns brown with age. And no, ‘bilirubin’ doesn’t explain that away. **McCrone, part of the STURP team, found that the ‘blood’ was painted with vermilion in a gelatin medium. Note that those who claim blood is present, generally actually refer to blood proteins. And those same proteins are found in pigment fixatives used in the period.**
No, the image does not contain ‘3D information’. Actually just the opposite. An image formed by a sheet draped over a body will exhibit severe wraparound distortion. None of this is present on the Shroud. If the image was formed with an actual object, it would have needed to have been shallow, like a bas-relief. One of the issues with the image you rarely hear about, is the historical representations of it. **We have numerous paintings of it created not long after it first surfaced. And these paintings invariably show a bright, vivid image. The current faded condition happened after this time. So the pro-authenticity crowd has to explain how the image remained vivid for around 1500 years, then rapidly faded shortly thereafter. This makes no sense, but it does make sense for a 14th century fake, with the pigment being lost with handling. And the image being formed mainly (outside the ‘blood’ stains) by loss of pigment explains why while modern attempts to duplicate the image are close to the original, they are not exact. It is difficult to simulate centuries of aging of the linen in respect to the pigment applied.**
And speaking of the linen, it is completely anachronistic. The Shroud linen is a three to one herringbone with Z twist. Not only do we not have any first century examples of this kind of weave, a prominent textile history expert determined that it was impossible to make that kind of weave on the kinds of looms in existence 2000 years ago. But the medieval looms could do so, and did."
''Jesus'' is a fictional character, no more real or relevant than any character in a comic book. There is no more need to debunk any claims by the Roman Catholic Church than to analyze the physics of Superman's powers. The RCC is a scam, a racket, and an organized crime gang and anyone who believes in ANYTHING it preaches is a victim of a severe neurosis.
That said, the radio carbon method of dating is seriously flawed and cannot be relied upon. There is no evidence, only an assumption, that there has been no extra carbon added to the earth's atmosphere in the recent past. And even if it were shown to be true that the amount of radio carbon in the atmosphere has remained constant, it is also an unproven assumption that radioactive materials lose their radioactivity at a fixed rate.
Where’s your evidence he’s a made up figure? There’s more evidence for him existing than almost any other person in history. Who’s to say anyone is real then if we never met them or have a photo of them?
The Shroud is sufficient evidence surely? It matches the Sudarium. And they both fit the Gospel account. But I guess it's all just some bizarre coincidence, right?
It is absolutely not an unproven assumption that radioactive particles decay as a constant rate. We've been studying this for over 100 years and all evidence indicates that this is in fact a constant. What evidence do YOU have that two samples of the same radioactive element will decay at different rates?
It’s not just Christians. A few years back, we visited the relic museum at the Topkapi Palace in Istanbul. They had “Moses’ staff” (a wooden stick) and “Abraham’s mixing bowl” (an old stone bowl) on display. Possibly more authentic were some hairs from Mohammed’s beard and his sword.
(It’s also kind of cool to see the Sultan’s sit-down toilet (the ultimate status symbol of the time?), in the breezeway just off of the harem courtyard.)
I have a different question about the psychology of human belief: why are most people deliberately selective about how and when they embrace belief as valid, and when they at least claim to support rational objectivity, aka "science", over belief?
To provide a deliberately provocative example, why do so many American liberals dismiss Christian theology, including relics like the shroud, and its utility as a foundation for morality and politics, but then embrace Native American religion and all their associated totems, and eagerly create laws and policies in accordance with those animist beliefs? Is this an expression of more fundamental human desire for political advantage, or just an expression of typically irrational and inconsistent human psychology?
Can you name liberals who believe in Native American religion (other than some Native Americans) and name the laws and policies you claim are based on animist beliefs? Thank you.
There is a rock called ''The Devil's Nose, in Wyoming that is no longer open for rock climbers because a tribe complained that it is sacred in their religion. The Park Service then banned anyone from climbing it.
Members of the Hopi tribe are allowed to take baby eagles, a protected species, from a National Monument, a protected area, for rituals that violate animal cruelty laws.
There are numerous other examples of laws that grant special privileges to Indians on reliigious grounds.
That's out of a recognition that they have a right to preserve their culture. You don't need to believe in the beliefs to view it as just to let them.
I think you are a little unjust. “Embrace” does not mean “believe”, and “in accordance with” does not mean “based on”. The final question - “political advantage, or… irrational… psychology” - is real and important.
Do Native Americans worship old bones?What are some relics they prey over in their culture and where are the shrines they make pilgrimages to?
...read:pray over......
The sample was not from the main part of the cloth it was taken from a repaired part of the shroud there’s photographic evidence to it. So you have a whole article stating the shroud is from the 14th century and therefore is not the burial cloth of Jesus and you sight ONE piece of evidence for it being a fraud? How about the fact that no one can come up with an explanation on how the image was formed? The best anyone has come to explain it was the use of some 1400 lasers being set off at the same time in a split second? I’m not a scientist but I would think that might be a hard thing to do in the 1300’s(note the sarcasm)…how about the fact that the blood(yes it’s real blood) seaps through to the back of the cloth yet the image is only a few hairs deep? Meaning that the blood was there first then the image after…why would a forger go through all that trouble? Why is there blood on the wrist and not on the hands? All images of Christ show the nails through the hands in paintings in that era…why and how would a forger know to put the nails through the wrists? How about the new evidence to the date of the shroud that just came out in 2024 dating it back to the first century? It’s truly amazing that on one side you have all this evidence to its authenticity being about 10 feet high and on the side of it being a fake you have one piece of evidence that’s about a centimeter high.
Well summarised. At this stage these kind of 'skeptics' are clutching at straws and ignoring actual evidence.
This article seems to ignore all the evidence except the carbon dating, and yet there is strong evidence that the test strip was taken from a mediaeval repair, which would invalidate the entire 14th century fake claim as based on the C14 test.
I've been following developments on the Shroud for the past 40 years. I stayed as a "skeptic" and eventually became a believer that perhaps it is the cloth that covered Jesus and proof of his resurrection. Why do I believe that? Just about every skeptics' articles and research focus on the Carbon 14 dating, even though one of the scientists involved in doing the test admitted years later that there were indeed issues with the sample and the process they used. But regardless, not one skeptic has followed their research and studies with a credible theory of how the image was created. Even the most skeptical scientists agree today that the image was formed by a process that dehydrated a minuscule part of the top fibrils of the threads that were "scorched" in the process of creating the image. No one to date, even using the most sophisticated technology available, has been able to replicate a portion of the image, much less an entire, full-length image on the Shroud. So then the question: if it is not a legitimate cloth that covered Jesus created by a process that now one to this day has been enel to replicate, then how was it created? Every single skeptic fails to provide a credible process that has been tested and proven to replicate the image on the Shroud.
If the Shroud was a 14th century fake, apart from all the forensic data on it being a scorch more than a painting, how can the exact matching with the Sudarion face cloth be accounted for? Doubtless you know that the Sudarion has a provenance dating back to at the very least the 11th century when it was witnessed by King Alphonso?
Where are all the other ancient burial shrouds with photographic images of their occupants somehow grafted on them?
That actually may be the shroud of Judas. When the Disciples found out that he was the one who squealed on Jesus, they were pretty upset. So, after the Last Supper, the disciples decided to send Jesus to India with his pregnant girlfriend, Mary Magdalene. Then they got Judas really drunk, dressed him up and put on some makeup to made him look like JC (the guards didn’t know what Jesus looked like anyway.) They then presented Judas for execution with him mumbling incoherently.
Meanwhile, Jesus and Mary got to India, learned to speak Hindi, had a couple of kids, established a Kashmir sweater company and lived happily thereafter. In fact, you can see Jesus’s grave, called the Roza Bal Shrine, in downtown Srinagar, India. There is a small charge.
That the test strip was taken from a mediaeval repair, is such a silly thing that it is not worth mentioning.
What is the best explanation for how the image was produced?
Forensic analysis indicates that it is a scorch on the linen. There is no paint or dye. Also the V-8 image scanner produces an image unlike any ever painted or drawn.
Well written. Thoroughly enjoyed reading the arguments. The Shroud is a 14 Century relict.
There’s only 1 argument in the article. Where’s all the evidence it’s a fake? How was the image formed?
Just a quibble - relict means widow🤣
If Jesus truly was the "son of God" why does the Bible portray him as a failed apocalyptic prophet, which is the general consensus of critical scholarship?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Jesus is clearly speaking to the disciples and gives a timeframe for when the Son of Man would come.*
*"Jesus sent these twelve out,* charging them, saying: Do not go into the way of the nations, and do not go into a Samaritan city. *But rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.* And going on, proclaim, saying, The kingdom of Heaven has drawn near" (Matthew 10:5-7)
“Truly I say to you, ***you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes”*** (Matthew 10:23);
For the *Son of man* shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; ***and then he shall reward every man according to his works.***
Truly I tell you, ***some who are standing here will not taste death*** before they see the *Son of Man* coming in his kingdom (Matthew 16:27-28)
Truly I tell you, ***some who are standing here*** will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God (Luke 9:27)
Truly I tell you, ***this generation will certainly not pass away*** until all these things have happened (Mark 13:30)
*He says that the coming of the Son of Man will be accompanied by:*
The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
Then will appear the sign of the *Son of Man* in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the *Son of Man* coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Truly I tell you, ***this generation will certainly not pass away*** until all these things have happened (Matthew 24:29-34)
There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the *Son of Man* coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near. When you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.
Truly I tell you, ***this generation will certainly not pass away*** until all these things have happened (Luke 21:25-32)
He also falsely prophesied to the high priest, the Sanhedrin and Nathaniel.
*Jesus falsely prophesied to the high priest and the Sanhedrin*
Jesus also falsely prophesied to the high priest and the Sanhedrin (assemblies of either twenty-three or seventy-one rabbis appointed to sit as a tribunal)
You will see the *Son of Man* sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and ***coming on the clouds of heaven*** (Matthew 26:64) (Mark 14:62)
Except the high priest and the Sanhedrin never saw Jesus sitting at the right hand side of God, or coming on the clouds of heaven, or any such thing.
*Jesus falsely prophesied to Nathaniel*
Jesus also falsely prophesied to Nathaniel when he declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.”
Jesus said, You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You will see greater things than that. He then added, ***“Very truly I tell you, you will see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man*** (John 1:50-51)
*Nathaniel never saw any such thing. Neither did anyone else.*
------------------------------------------------------------------
Also look up:
Watch *Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet, Historical Lecture - Bart D. Ehrman*
*"End Times – Evil Bible .com"*
*"The End of All Things is At Hand - The Church Of Truth"*
*"ex-apologist: On One of the Main Reasons Why I Think Christianity is False (Reposted)"*
*"Jesus the Apocalyptic Prophet - History for Atheists"*
(Tim O'Neill is a former Christian and is familiar with most of the Biblical scholarship. He's been studying the scholarship and history for decades)
*"Jesus’ Failed Prophecy About His Return - Black Nonbelievers, Inc."*
Also, how cognitive dissonance possibly explains early Christianity.
*“The Rationalization Hypothesis: Is a Vision of Jesus Necessary for the Rise of the Resurrection Belief?”* — by Kris Komarnitsky | Κέλσος - Wordpress
*"February 2015 – Escaping Christian Fundamentalism"* - Isaiah 53
*"Jesus and the Messianic Prophecies - Did the Old Testament Point to Jesus? - The Bart Ehrman Blog"*
*"Did Jesus Fulfill Prophecy? | Westar Institute"*
*"Jesus Was Not the Only “Prophet” to Predict the Destruction of the Temple – Escaping Christian Fundamentalism"*
*"What Do the Apostles’ Deaths Prove? Guest Post by Kyle Smith. - The Bart Ehrman Blog"*
"However, this “information” is incorrect, and the media did not bother to check the reliability of what they published. If we examine the reports closely, here is what actually happened:
The article by the Italian scholars was published in 2022, so it is not new.
2 The simple facts are that a news outlet in the U.S. broke the news two years late—and then many others simply copied from it.The proposed dating system is not normally used nor has it been validated by the scientific community. It is based on the use of X-rays (Wide- Angle X-ray Scattering, or WAXS), which are supposed to measure the degradation of cellulose fibers. This system was invented in 2019 by these very same authors, and for the purpose of dating the Shroud, and so is not used by anyone else.
3The method is highly unreliable, because tissue aging is strongly influenced by environmental factors, such as humidity, temperature, light exposure, storage conditions, and the possible presence of microorganisms or of various chemicals, all of which are unpredictable variables that can heavily alter the results. Thus, it cannot provide a reliable dating that is remotely comparable to that provided by the proven Carbon-14 method, which dates the Shroud as being of medieval origin.
The inventors of the WAXS method are not neutral scientists; they are sindonologists (i.e., people who study the Shroud of Turin from a believing perspective; from the Greek word sindòn, used in the Gospels to define the type of fine fabric, undoubtedly linen, with which the corpse of Jesus was believed to be wrapped), and who for years have been trying hard to prove that the Shroud is authentic. None of them are experts in either dating or textiles. The main proponents of the research are Giulio Fanti and Liberato De Caro. Both share the commonality of being followers of the Italian pseudomystic Maria Valtorta, who died in 1961, and who, bedridden by illness, told of receiving heavenly messages and seeing the entire life of Christ, which she described in many books. Although the Catholic Church has put these books on the Index (that is, a catalog of writings condemned as contrary to faith or morals), Fanti and De Caro believe in Valtorta’s visions. Fanti also believes he received personal messages from Jesus and Our Lady, and De Caro, a deacon, is known for his belief in creationism.The authors were never allowed to extract material directly from the Shroud. What they used was a very small sample (approx. 0.5 mm × 1 mm), which they claim originally belonged to the Shroud.
Between 2014 and 2022, these two authors have already invented four different systems to date textiles in order to authenticate the Shroud: measurement of the mechanical properties of individual linen fibers, Raman spectroscopy, Fourier transform infrared spectroscopy (Fanti), and WAXS (De Caro).Their conclusions are considered so unreliable that even a journal published by the Center for Sindonology in Turin (which pursues proof of the Shroud’s authenticity) urged people to be cautious of their conclusions.4"
"The blood on the Shroud is bright red, and blood turns brown with age. And no, ‘bilirubin’ doesn’t explain that away. **McCrone, part of the STURP team, found that the ‘blood’ was painted with vermilion in a gelatin medium. Note that those who claim blood is present, generally actually refer to blood proteins. And those same proteins are found in pigment fixatives used in the period.**
No, the image does not contain ‘3D information’. Actually just the opposite. An image formed by a sheet draped over a body will exhibit severe wraparound distortion. None of this is present on the Shroud. If the image was formed with an actual object, it would have needed to have been shallow, like a bas-relief. One of the issues with the image you rarely hear about, is the historical representations of it. **We have numerous paintings of it created not long after it first surfaced. And these paintings invariably show a bright, vivid image. The current faded condition happened after this time. So the pro-authenticity crowd has to explain how the image remained vivid for around 1500 years, then rapidly faded shortly thereafter. This makes no sense, but it does make sense for a 14th century fake, with the pigment being lost with handling. And the image being formed mainly (outside the ‘blood’ stains) by loss of pigment explains why while modern attempts to duplicate the image are close to the original, they are not exact. It is difficult to simulate centuries of aging of the linen in respect to the pigment applied.**
And speaking of the linen, it is completely anachronistic. The Shroud linen is a three to one herringbone with Z twist. Not only do we not have any first century examples of this kind of weave, a prominent textile history expert determined that it was impossible to make that kind of weave on the kinds of looms in existence 2000 years ago. But the medieval looms could do so, and did."
Massimo Pigliucci is a philosopher of science, not a historian of science... :)
''Jesus'' is a fictional character, no more real or relevant than any character in a comic book. There is no more need to debunk any claims by the Roman Catholic Church than to analyze the physics of Superman's powers. The RCC is a scam, a racket, and an organized crime gang and anyone who believes in ANYTHING it preaches is a victim of a severe neurosis.
That said, the radio carbon method of dating is seriously flawed and cannot be relied upon. There is no evidence, only an assumption, that there has been no extra carbon added to the earth's atmosphere in the recent past. And even if it were shown to be true that the amount of radio carbon in the atmosphere has remained constant, it is also an unproven assumption that radioactive materials lose their radioactivity at a fixed rate.
Where’s your evidence he’s a made up figure? There’s more evidence for him existing than almost any other person in history. Who’s to say anyone is real then if we never met them or have a photo of them?
The Shroud is sufficient evidence surely? It matches the Sudarium. And they both fit the Gospel account. But I guess it's all just some bizarre coincidence, right?
It is absolutely not an unproven assumption that radioactive particles decay as a constant rate. We've been studying this for over 100 years and all evidence indicates that this is in fact a constant. What evidence do YOU have that two samples of the same radioactive element will decay at different rates?
Irrelevant. This is not the counter claim. And what is your opinion of all the other evidence? Sudarium?
It’s not just Christians. A few years back, we visited the relic museum at the Topkapi Palace in Istanbul. They had “Moses’ staff” (a wooden stick) and “Abraham’s mixing bowl” (an old stone bowl) on display. Possibly more authentic were some hairs from Mohammed’s beard and his sword.
(It’s also kind of cool to see the Sultan’s sit-down toilet (the ultimate status symbol of the time?), in the breezeway just off of the harem courtyard.)
This is just an attempt at guilt by association and doesn't address the evidence.